4 ms·

> While it sucks for the workers at the plant [..] > This is great [..] Aren't these statements contradictory? Isn't the supposed goal to help underage worker

by VMG 14y ago

> While it sucks for the workers at the plant [..] > This is great [..] Aren't these statements contradictory? Isn't the supposed goal to help underage workers?

e1ven 14y ago
Presumably, not all the workers are the plant are underage. Having compassion for those who are losing their jobs is rather human.
SoftwareMaven 14y ago
Getting vaccinated sucks because you have to get poked, but it's great when you don't get the flu. It's possible to suck today but lead to a better state of being.
awestroke 14y ago
Short term vs long term
- VMG 14y ago
  In the long term, underage workers still can't work there and have to work somewhere else, presumably somewhere where they wouldn't work if they had the choice.
  - ChuckMcM 14y ago
    Technically in the long term the workers will age and become age appropriate and enter the workforce legally with an advantage of prior experience. Although its a fair point that there are other places, undoubtedly with less oversight where these children might be shipped off too.
gtr32x 14y ago
First I would like to say I am not in support of underage workers, I would never be. However, if we look at the realistic situations in certain parts of the globe, especially China, sometimes it is not always such a simple situation that we allow these underage workers to work. In some far far away frugal rural land, a family is struggling financially. Their 14 year old son was not able to go to school, neither was there enough food to be fed to him. The news hit that there's a plant that's openly hiring workers without age restriction. The seemingly insignificant pay in the western's eyes will be a huge help to the family's financial in the remote rural China. After all, it's much better to work at such places than some coal mine that severely underpays. Depending on where you are born from, some kids are meant to grow up faster than others. Some kids just cannot afford a normal education like everybody else should. It's not a fair world and it never will be. Is it fair for the kids? No it's not, but what's their best option? Of course, not all situations are like this, but for situations where underage workers are actually working, there is a strong trend that this may possibly be the case. After all, who in the right mind would send their child to work at such an early age is they don't have to? Who doesn't want to live a good life? Remember Li Ka-Ching? He started working at a young age of 15 at a watch shop. See where he is at today? Once again, I am not saying that education isn't important, I believe it is. However, under so many unique circumstances, it isn't always the most viable path one goes through. I don't support underage workers, this comment isn't meant to bring to justice to the underage worker hiring practices in China. But it just pains me to see people generalize that the goal is to 'help' underage workers. The situation isn't the same in the West, hence why we think like that. It's a well wish and a prospect to help the country though.
- mc32 14y ago
  ^This sums up the situation pretty well. Trying to do good does have unintended consequences. If pressure works, it will mean that underage workers will have one fewer avenue towards self-sustenance, or ability to help their destitute families. If I were underage I would want the option to work at a factory rather than combing the garbage dumps ofr scraps --at least there is a future on a factory floor, for the time being.
- VMG 14y ago
  Then let me say that I am in support of underage workers. The idea that preventing children to work in these factories helps the children is ill-conceived, as you pointed out. If Apple wanted to help these children, it could have required better working conditions or better pay, but not letting them work doesn't achieve the goal. These kids won't just say "alright let's go to school then" when they can't work anymore.
  - yarianluis 14y ago
    Not in the case of firing the company outright but the article clearly illustrates what happens to the children these companies employ against contract terms: >Apple requires its suppliers to return the workers back to a school chosen by the family and finance their education. "In addition, the children must continue to receive income matching what they received when they were employed. We also follow up regularly to ensure that the children remain in school and that the suppliers continue to uphold their financial commitment," wrote Apple in its latest report.
    - VMG 14y ago
      Tough luck for those children who didn't already work there.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- jjoonathan 14y ago
  If you draw a box around labour and management and compute the relative bargaining power of each group, child labour worsens the bargaining position of labour (by increasing supply). It is in the collective interests of China's poor (children and adults alike) to see child labour ended. What you have noticed is something completely different: it may be advantageous for an individual family to send their child to work. Restrictions on child labour put the system out of Nash equilibrium but they perform better globally with respect to helping the poor. This paradox manifests itself in many places; I suspect, given that this is Hacker News, that you may be familiar with a few of them already. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox The critical conclusion that free markets search for nash equilibria but NOT global optima is highly relevant to fiscal philosophy and entrepreneurship.

by VMG 14y ago

> While it sucks for the workers at the plant [..] > This is great [..] Aren't these statements contradictory? Isn't the supposed goal to help underage workers?

e1ven 14y ago

Presumably, not all the workers are the plant are underage. Having compassion for those who are losing their jobs is rather human.

SoftwareMaven 14y ago

Getting vaccinated sucks because you have to get poked, but it's great when you don't get the flu. It's possible to suck today but lead to a better state of being.

awestroke 14y ago

Short term vs long term

VMG 14y ago
In the long term, underage workers still can't work there and have to work somewhere else, presumably somewhere where they wouldn't work if they had the choice.
- ChuckMcM 14y ago
  Technically in the long term the workers will age and become age appropriate and enter the workforce legally with an advantage of prior experience. Although its a fair point that there are other places, undoubtedly with less oversight where these children might be shipped off too.

gtr32x 14y ago

First I would like to say I am not in support of underage workers, I would never be. However, if we look at the realistic situations in certain parts of the globe, especially China, sometimes it is not always such a simple situation that we allow these underage workers to work. In some far far away frugal rural land, a family is struggling financially. Their 14 year old son was not able to go to school, neither was there enough food to be fed to him. The news hit that there's a plant that's openly hiring workers without age restriction. The seemingly insignificant pay in the western's eyes will be a huge help to the family's financial in the remote rural China. After all, it's much better to work at such places than some coal mine that severely underpays. Depending on where you are born from, some kids are meant to grow up faster than others. Some kids just cannot afford a normal education like everybody else should. It's not a fair world and it never will be. Is it fair for the kids? No it's not, but what's their best option? Of course, not all situations are like this, but for situations where underage workers are actually working, there is a strong trend that this may possibly be the case. After all, who in the right mind would send their child to work at such an early age is they don't have to? Who doesn't want to live a good life? Remember Li Ka-Ching? He started working at a young age of 15 at a watch shop. See where he is at today? Once again, I am not saying that education isn't important, I believe it is. However, under so many unique circumstances, it isn't always the most viable path one goes through. I don't support underage workers, this comment isn't meant to bring to justice to the underage worker hiring practices in China. But it just pains me to see people generalize that the goal is to 'help' underage workers. The situation isn't the same in the West, hence why we think like that. It's a well wish and a prospect to help the country though.

mc32 14y ago
^This sums up the situation pretty well. Trying to do good does have unintended consequences. If pressure works, it will mean that underage workers will have one fewer avenue towards self-sustenance, or ability to help their destitute families. If I were underage I would want the option to work at a factory rather than combing the garbage dumps ofr scraps --at least there is a future on a factory floor, for the time being.
VMG 14y ago
Then let me say that I am in support of underage workers. The idea that preventing children to work in these factories helps the children is ill-conceived, as you pointed out. If Apple wanted to help these children, it could have required better working conditions or better pay, but not letting them work doesn't achieve the goal. These kids won't just say "alright let's go to school then" when they can't work anymore.
- yarianluis 14y ago
  Not in the case of firing the company outright but the article clearly illustrates what happens to the children these companies employ against contract terms: >Apple requires its suppliers to return the workers back to a school chosen by the family and finance their education. "In addition, the children must continue to receive income matching what they received when they were employed. We also follow up regularly to ensure that the children remain in school and that the suppliers continue to uphold their financial commitment," wrote Apple in its latest report.
  - VMG 14y ago
    Tough luck for those children who didn't already work there.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
jjoonathan 14y ago
If you draw a box around labour and management and compute the relative bargaining power of each group, child labour worsens the bargaining position of labour (by increasing supply). It is in the collective interests of China's poor (children and adults alike) to see child labour ended. What you have noticed is something completely different: it may be advantageous for an individual family to send their child to work. Restrictions on child labour put the system out of Nash equilibrium but they perform better globally with respect to helping the poor. This paradox manifests itself in many places; I suspect, given that this is Hacker News, that you may be familiar with a few of them already. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox The critical conclusion that free markets search for nash equilibria but NOT global optima is highly relevant to fiscal philosophy and entrepreneurship.