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"Prosecutors will always wield a great deal of power in the American criminal system; but before a defendant agrees to plead guilty, he ought to know whether th

by quahada 14y ago

"Prosecutors will always wield a great deal of power in the American criminal system; but before a defendant agrees to plead guilty, he ought to know whether the state holds four aces or a busted flush." I am not a lawyer, so I'm shocked to learn that you can plead guilty to a crime without the opportunity to review all of the evidence against you.

betterunix 14y ago
Perhaps you should take a closer look at the justice system. What typically happens is that you are offered a plea bargain, and if you refuse to take it, the government will add more criminal charges to the case. There have even been cases where the government delays prosecution until a convict is released, and then arrests him and sends him right back to court. The ultimate problem here is an overly expansive legal system, which is made worse by an obscenely powerful executive branch of government. We are desperately in need of reform, but we are a nation that is populated by right-wing law-and-order types, and whose politicians are mostly from that same category (yes, that includes the Democrats, who have no aversion to using paramilitary police teams to serve search-and-arrest warrants and who appoint people like Carmen Ortiz).
- quahada 14y ago
  Interesting. I think part of the fundamental problem is that more criminal activity advances the careers of people who work in the criminal justice system. They have an incentive to turn small crimes into big ones. Then they cry about how much crime there is. Then they demand harsher penalties & laws to criminalize more things. This is a positive feedback loop. The system has gone out of control.
- erichocean 14y ago
  we are a nation that is populated by right-wing law-and-order types You do realize that trial lawyers vote overwhelmingly for Team Blue, right? And that the legal profession as a whole votes overwhelmingly for Team Blue? And that law schools themselves are overwhelmingly Team Blue voters? I get the whole "Red Team supports putting (their idea of) moral laws into the legal code", and that sucks, but the law problem exists because both teams are pushing it down the wrong track. Don't for a second think you can just blame flyover country for the current state of the legal system.
  - betterunix 14y ago
    ...so you think a party whose prominent politicians have a history of: * Using drone strikes to kill citizens who never received a trial * Sending paramilitary police teams in to raid medical marijuana facilities, at an accelerated rate, to promote the interests of friendly business partners * Negotiating secret trade agreements that promote the interests of another group of friendly business partners * Spend more on the military than on education * Ignore the expressed will of the people * Arrest opposition candidates who attempt to sit in the audience at presidential debates * Continue the expansion of executive power * Pass, and sign into law, a bill that allows indefinite imprisonment without trial ...to not be right wing? Oh, right, they support the right of gay people to marry. Congratulations, while gay people get to marry, the rest of us can be shot by soldiers serving a search-and-arrest warrant because a suspected drug dealer used to live at our address (or maybe not, whatever).
    - erichocean 14y ago
      I assume "right-wing" is a synonym for Red Team, and "left-wing" a synonym for Blue Team. But your point is a good one: both teams support some appalling legal and military policies against their own citizens.

by quahada 14y ago

betterunix 14y ago

Perhaps you should take a closer look at the justice system. What typically happens is that you are offered a plea bargain, and if you refuse to take it, the government will add more criminal charges to the case. There have even been cases where the government delays prosecution until a convict is released, and then arrests him and sends him right back to court. The ultimate problem here is an overly expansive legal system, which is made worse by an obscenely powerful executive branch of government. We are desperately in need of reform, but we are a nation that is populated by right-wing law-and-order types, and whose politicians are mostly from that same category (yes, that includes the Democrats, who have no aversion to using paramilitary police teams to serve search-and-arrest warrants and who appoint people like Carmen Ortiz).

quahada 14y ago
Interesting. I think part of the fundamental problem is that more criminal activity advances the careers of people who work in the criminal justice system. They have an incentive to turn small crimes into big ones. Then they cry about how much crime there is. Then they demand harsher penalties & laws to criminalize more things. This is a positive feedback loop. The system has gone out of control.
erichocean 14y ago
we are a nation that is populated by right-wing law-and-order types You do realize that trial lawyers vote overwhelmingly for Team Blue, right? And that the legal profession as a whole votes overwhelmingly for Team Blue? And that law schools themselves are overwhelmingly Team Blue voters? I get the whole "Red Team supports putting (their idea of) moral laws into the legal code", and that sucks, but the law problem exists because both teams are pushing it down the wrong track. Don't for a second think you can just blame flyover country for the current state of the legal system.
- betterunix 14y ago
  ...so you think a party whose prominent politicians have a history of: * Using drone strikes to kill citizens who never received a trial * Sending paramilitary police teams in to raid medical marijuana facilities, at an accelerated rate, to promote the interests of friendly business partners * Negotiating secret trade agreements that promote the interests of another group of friendly business partners * Spend more on the military than on education * Ignore the expressed will of the people * Arrest opposition candidates who attempt to sit in the audience at presidential debates * Continue the expansion of executive power * Pass, and sign into law, a bill that allows indefinite imprisonment without trial ...to not be right wing? Oh, right, they support the right of gay people to marry. Congratulations, while gay people get to marry, the rest of us can be shot by soldiers serving a search-and-arrest warrant because a suspected drug dealer used to live at our address (or maybe not, whatever).
  - erichocean 14y ago
    I assume "right-wing" is a synonym for Red Team, and "left-wing" a synonym for Blue Team. But your point is a good one: both teams support some appalling legal and military policies against their own citizens.