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libertarianism and capitalism are not at odds with social consciousness and charity. as a libertarian I object only to the mandatory nature of government spons

libertarianism and capitalism are not at odds with social consciousness and charity. as a libertarian I object only to the mandatory nature of government sponsored regulation and subsidy. instead of having a government sponsored safety net let startups compete to monetize the homeless market. As mentioned a lot of these people are doing day laborer jobs and other miscellaneous things. there is probably a lot of potential there that is only being stifled by minimum wage laws. Minimum wage laws prevent anyone whose labor isn't worth at least $x an hour from finding employment. "but paying homeless people $3 an hour is barbaric, what do you want, homeless sweat shops?" $3 an hour is better than $0 an hour, and the defining feature would be that everything was entered into as a voluntary contract. Nothing would be forced on anyone. It would simply be giving homeless people an option that doesn't exist now. Imagine: Better Living Inc. offers housing, counseling, and vocational training to the homeless. In the interim the homeless person works for $3 an hour until he has enough saved up to jump start a real life again. I'm betting the numbers add up.

turkishrevenge 18y ago
Voluntary? In an absolutist sense, yes. In practice, no. In theory all work in voluntary, assuming you can leave job and still afford to pay for basic amenities like food, housing, transportation, and still provide for your family, etc until new employment is secured. If you cannot do these things, it ceases to be voluntary. "but paying homeless people $3 an hour is barbaric, what do you want, homeless sweat shops?" Well according to this logic, $2.50/hr is better than $0/hr; $2/hr is better than $0/hr; $1/hr is better than $0/hr, and so on. Everything you describe is a race to the bottom in terms of wages. There would have to be a very strong deflationary pressure to bring prices to the point where the above is capable of really purchasing anything. In such a case, the economy would be in shambles anyway, so employment in general would be a huge issue. What you describe is not new and, at its core, totally exploitative. Living in a company town is strikingly similar to this. The employer actually "pays" the worker, $7/hr, but keeps the $4 majority the payment of ground rent, food, etc. Of course, you leave any time--that is until your meager savings are depleted by a raised cost of living--one manufactured by the benevolent boss/mayor!
- nazgulnarsil 18y ago
  you're talking about a monopoly situation. I'm talking about a startup that competes for low wage/low skill time and then contracts this work out. It really isn't much different from the prison work programs, except the homless can leave anytime.
  - turkishrevenge 18y ago
    Look, I'm pointing out what has historically existed. Competition was around at that time as well, and these things still happened. You're the one putting forth this idea and I am criticizing it. If you cannot defend it, then it probably needs work. " I'm talking about a startup that competes for low wage/low skill time and then contracts this work out. It really isn't much different from the prison work programs, except the homeless can leave anytime" Considering prisons, for the most part cost money, I would like to see how this would be profitable. I love how you justify this kind of behavior by qualifying anything you say with something to the effect of "but they can leave at any time". BTW This sounds like the same system (Gang System) employed by the English agricultural industry in the mid 19th century. It was one step above slavery, because "they could leave at any time", although their wages were so pitiful this was realistically an impossibility. And yes, there was a lot of competition. Same thing with domestic labor. When you're an unskilled laborer, your options are pretty limited by default. These are not new ideas, they're just horrible ideas from the past that people for the most part have forgotten about.
    - nazgulnarsil 18y ago
      why do you keep comparing the homeless to people who were trying to actually make a living and raise families? the situation is totally different. When you're an unskilled laborer, your options are pretty limited by default. and you want to limit those options further. I'm not grasping how giving someone an additional option makes their situation worse. Say it was as bad as you say and these places were horrible. Homeless person in city A options: normal homeless options Homeless person in city B options: normal homeless options + low wage job offer how is the person in city A magically better off?
msluyter 18y ago
Or, alternative scenario: "Better Living Inc" charges the homeless it's "helping" various fees for all that housing and assistance, meanwhile keeping wages low enough such that employees remain in debt, effectively guaranteeing "Better Living" a pool of cheap labor, much like the days of the old company store... Of course, since there would be no regulatory oversight, there would be no way of rectifying this situation.
- nazgulnarsil 18y ago
  and why would homeless people volunteer for this if it was the case? what's worse? being on the street with no prospects or being on the street but having the option to work for basic amenities if you choose? i think a lot of these criticisms are being unrealistic about how horrible being homeless is. Especially in cities where it SNOWS. Homeless people freeze to death every winter. Hell, if i was freezing to death I would rob someone just to get thrown in prison. At least prisoners have food and shelter.
  - msluyter 18y ago
    _and why would homeless people volunteer for this if it was the case?_ People are often duped and/or coerced into doing all sorts of things not in their best long term interests interests.
    - nazgulnarsil 18y ago
      and you think homeless people have a low time-preference? a homeless person by definition doesn't have long term interests. The whole point is to give them a short term solution so that the IMMEDIACY of not freezing to death doesn't prevent them from making longer term plans.
jibiki 18y ago
Besides the problems mentioned in the other comments, there are many homeless people who aren't really fit for any job, due to severe mental illness or drug abuse issues.

turkishrevenge 18y ago

Voluntary? In an absolutist sense, yes. In practice, no. In theory all work in voluntary, assuming you can leave job and still afford to pay for basic amenities like food, housing, transportation, and still provide for your family, etc until new employment is secured. If you cannot do these things, it ceases to be voluntary. "but paying homeless people $3 an hour is barbaric, what do you want, homeless sweat shops?" Well according to this logic, $2.50/hr is better than $0/hr; $2/hr is better than $0/hr; $1/hr is better than $0/hr, and so on. Everything you describe is a race to the bottom in terms of wages. There would have to be a very strong deflationary pressure to bring prices to the point where the above is capable of really purchasing anything. In such a case, the economy would be in shambles anyway, so employment in general would be a huge issue. What you describe is not new and, at its core, totally exploitative. Living in a company town is strikingly similar to this. The employer actually "pays" the worker, $7/hr, but keeps the $4 majority the payment of ground rent, food, etc. Of course, you leave any time--that is until your meager savings are depleted by a raised cost of living--one manufactured by the benevolent boss/mayor!

nazgulnarsil 18y ago
you're talking about a monopoly situation. I'm talking about a startup that competes for low wage/low skill time and then contracts this work out. It really isn't much different from the prison work programs, except the homless can leave anytime.
- turkishrevenge 18y ago
  Look, I'm pointing out what has historically existed. Competition was around at that time as well, and these things still happened. You're the one putting forth this idea and I am criticizing it. If you cannot defend it, then it probably needs work. " I'm talking about a startup that competes for low wage/low skill time and then contracts this work out. It really isn't much different from the prison work programs, except the homeless can leave anytime" Considering prisons, for the most part cost money, I would like to see how this would be profitable. I love how you justify this kind of behavior by qualifying anything you say with something to the effect of "but they can leave at any time". BTW This sounds like the same system (Gang System) employed by the English agricultural industry in the mid 19th century. It was one step above slavery, because "they could leave at any time", although their wages were so pitiful this was realistically an impossibility. And yes, there was a lot of competition. Same thing with domestic labor. When you're an unskilled laborer, your options are pretty limited by default. These are not new ideas, they're just horrible ideas from the past that people for the most part have forgotten about.
  - nazgulnarsil 18y ago
    why do you keep comparing the homeless to people who were trying to actually make a living and raise families? the situation is totally different. When you're an unskilled laborer, your options are pretty limited by default. and you want to limit those options further. I'm not grasping how giving someone an additional option makes their situation worse. Say it was as bad as you say and these places were horrible. Homeless person in city A options: normal homeless options Homeless person in city B options: normal homeless options + low wage job offer how is the person in city A magically better off?

msluyter 18y ago

Or, alternative scenario: "Better Living Inc" charges the homeless it's "helping" various fees for all that housing and assistance, meanwhile keeping wages low enough such that employees remain in debt, effectively guaranteeing "Better Living" a pool of cheap labor, much like the days of the old company store... Of course, since there would be no regulatory oversight, there would be no way of rectifying this situation.

nazgulnarsil 18y ago
and why would homeless people volunteer for this if it was the case? what's worse? being on the street with no prospects or being on the street but having the option to work for basic amenities if you choose? i think a lot of these criticisms are being unrealistic about how horrible being homeless is. Especially in cities where it SNOWS. Homeless people freeze to death every winter. Hell, if i was freezing to death I would rob someone just to get thrown in prison. At least prisoners have food and shelter.
- msluyter 18y ago
  _and why would homeless people volunteer for this if it was the case?_ People are often duped and/or coerced into doing all sorts of things not in their best long term interests interests.
  - nazgulnarsil 18y ago
    and you think homeless people have a low time-preference? a homeless person by definition doesn't have long term interests. The whole point is to give them a short term solution so that the IMMEDIACY of not freezing to death doesn't prevent them from making longer term plans.

jibiki 18y ago

Besides the problems mentioned in the other comments, there are many homeless people who aren't really fit for any job, due to severe mental illness or drug abuse issues.