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So apparently Apple is making good on its promise to look deeper down in the supply chain. While it sucks for the workers at the plant that they're probably go

So apparently Apple is making good on its promise to look deeper down in the supply chain. While it sucks for the workers at the plant that they're probably going to lose their jobs (shitty work is [usually] better than no work), the jobs aren't actually going away. They're just being shifted to another factory that now has the knowledge that they too could be fired for what Westerners consider egregious working conditions. This is great, and the outcome of putting a lot of vocal and consistent pressure on Apple to behave in a less inhumane fashion. It's yet another example that well organized and vocal campaigns can result in meaningful change. They do take a while, though.

bilbo0s 14y ago
The unfortunate reality of global business is that those components will simply end up in other devices. The companies which sell the devices will just try harder to hide it from the consumer. The pressure needs to be put not so much on Apple, as on the industry... or the practices continue pretty much unabated. Unless Apple really does turn into a monopoly.
- SoftwareMaven 14y ago
  Since consumers have no visibility into the problem nor ability to solve the problem, I disagree that it starts with them (but it needs to get to them eventually). Apple wields a very large, very concentrated number of dollars, which may be enough to get the ball rolling. Other higher-end electronics companies may decide that, for marketing reasons, they will only work with "Apple approved" vendors or may decide the positive press is worth approving their own. It will be some time before the fifty-cent, crap electronics are reached, but you have to start somewhere.
VMG 14y ago
> While it sucks for the workers at the plant [..] > This is great [..] Aren't these statements contradictory? Isn't the supposed goal to help underage workers?
- e1ven 14y ago
  Presumably, not all the workers are the plant are underage. Having compassion for those who are losing their jobs is rather human.
- SoftwareMaven 14y ago
  Getting vaccinated sucks because you have to get poked, but it's great when you don't get the flu. It's possible to suck today but lead to a better state of being.
- awestroke 14y ago
  Short term vs long term
  - VMG 14y ago
    In the long term, underage workers still can't work there and have to work somewhere else, presumably somewhere where they wouldn't work if they had the choice.
    - ChuckMcM 14y ago
      Technically in the long term the workers will age and become age appropriate and enter the workforce legally with an advantage of prior experience. Although its a fair point that there are other places, undoubtedly with less oversight where these children might be shipped off too.
- gtr32x 14y ago
  First I would like to say I am not in support of underage workers, I would never be. However, if we look at the realistic situations in certain parts of the globe, especially China, sometimes it is not always such a simple situation that we allow these underage workers to work. In some far far away frugal rural land, a family is struggling financially. Their 14 year old son was not able to go to school, neither was there enough food to be fed to him. The news hit that there's a plant that's openly hiring workers without age restriction. The seemingly insignificant pay in the western's eyes will be a huge help to the family's financial in the remote rural China. After all, it's much better to work at such places than some coal mine that severely underpays. Depending on where you are born from, some kids are meant to grow up faster than others. Some kids just cannot afford a normal education like everybody else should. It's not a fair world and it never will be. Is it fair for the kids? No it's not, but what's their best option? Of course, not all situations are like this, but for situations where underage workers are actually working, there is a strong trend that this may possibly be the case. After all, who in the right mind would send their child to work at such an early age is they don't have to? Who doesn't want to live a good life? Remember Li Ka-Ching? He started working at a young age of 15 at a watch shop. See where he is at today? Once again, I am not saying that education isn't important, I believe it is. However, under so many unique circumstances, it isn't always the most viable path one goes through. I don't support underage workers, this comment isn't meant to bring to justice to the underage worker hiring practices in China. But it just pains me to see people generalize that the goal is to 'help' underage workers. The situation isn't the same in the West, hence why we think like that. It's a well wish and a prospect to help the country though.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
sp332 14y ago
Jobs will not move to other factories, because the underage workers are still underage.
stevenbedrick 14y ago
> While it sucks for the workers at the plant that they're probably going to lose their jobs... From TFA: When new violations are found, Apple requires its suppliers to return the workers back to a school chosen by the family and finance their education. "In addition, the children must continue to receive income matching what they received when they were employed. We also follow up regularly to ensure that the children remain in school and that the suppliers continue to uphold their financial commitment," wrote Apple in its latest report.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  I don't understand how Apple could do that if they completely fired the company. If they are still doing business with them then they could make such demands, but if they outright sacked the company why would that company continue to do what Apple tells them to? Is the local government providing enforcement?
  - rscale 14y ago
    A contract clause withholding outstanding payments until certain conditions are met would do the trick.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      I suppose such a contract would work provided the cost of fulfilling those obligations did not exceed the outstanding payment. Otherwise I would expect the company to just cut their loses.
      - Someone 14y ago
        It may not be perfect (which country's is?), but China has a justice system. A court case with Apple's weight (and money) behind it probably would be reasonably succesful in China.
        jlgreco 14y ago
Gorbzel 14y ago
Wait...what? The outcome of vocal pressure on Apple to change? There were definitely people pushing for better visibility of the human costs of the electronics industry, but aren't we being a bit circle jerky here? Well-orgaznied and vocal campaigns? I don't know what you're talking about, but suffice it to say I'm not sure this can't be mostly attributed to Tim Cook's increased focus on supply chain and manufacturing and the human consequences thereof. Ultimately, there's clearly a net positive here: less violations of clear human rights concerns in Chinese factories. I think everyone can agree, that's a good thing. But I can't help but be worried about this notion that this is some massive "win" for a campaign pressuring Apple. This is a problem with the entire industry, and one that needs to be solved. Maybe it's a symptom of being the world's largest company, but too many hugely critical issues to geekdom (patent reform, the costs of cheap mfr labor, etc) get oversimplified in comments like the above into some postured for / against Apple and completely miss the point. It's intellectually cheap and really just getting old and preventing a lot of real good work from getting done...
- Volpe 14y ago
  I don't think it's a win. These underage workers likely weren't doing it against their will. So really we just fired a bunch of poor people, because we think they are too young to work... Win! Do we really think these underage workers are going to go home and play Xbox, or go to school?

bilbo0s 14y ago

The unfortunate reality of global business is that those components will simply end up in other devices. The companies which sell the devices will just try harder to hide it from the consumer. The pressure needs to be put not so much on Apple, as on the industry... or the practices continue pretty much unabated. Unless Apple really does turn into a monopoly.

SoftwareMaven 14y ago
Since consumers have no visibility into the problem nor ability to solve the problem, I disagree that it starts with them (but it needs to get to them eventually). Apple wields a very large, very concentrated number of dollars, which may be enough to get the ball rolling. Other higher-end electronics companies may decide that, for marketing reasons, they will only work with "Apple approved" vendors or may decide the positive press is worth approving their own. It will be some time before the fifty-cent, crap electronics are reached, but you have to start somewhere.

VMG 14y ago

> While it sucks for the workers at the plant [..] > This is great [..] Aren't these statements contradictory? Isn't the supposed goal to help underage workers?

e1ven 14y ago
Presumably, not all the workers are the plant are underage. Having compassion for those who are losing their jobs is rather human.
SoftwareMaven 14y ago
Getting vaccinated sucks because you have to get poked, but it's great when you don't get the flu. It's possible to suck today but lead to a better state of being.
awestroke 14y ago
Short term vs long term
- VMG 14y ago
  In the long term, underage workers still can't work there and have to work somewhere else, presumably somewhere where they wouldn't work if they had the choice.
  - ChuckMcM 14y ago
    Technically in the long term the workers will age and become age appropriate and enter the workforce legally with an advantage of prior experience. Although its a fair point that there are other places, undoubtedly with less oversight where these children might be shipped off too.
gtr32x 14y ago
First I would like to say I am not in support of underage workers, I would never be. However, if we look at the realistic situations in certain parts of the globe, especially China, sometimes it is not always such a simple situation that we allow these underage workers to work. In some far far away frugal rural land, a family is struggling financially. Their 14 year old son was not able to go to school, neither was there enough food to be fed to him. The news hit that there's a plant that's openly hiring workers without age restriction. The seemingly insignificant pay in the western's eyes will be a huge help to the family's financial in the remote rural China. After all, it's much better to work at such places than some coal mine that severely underpays. Depending on where you are born from, some kids are meant to grow up faster than others. Some kids just cannot afford a normal education like everybody else should. It's not a fair world and it never will be. Is it fair for the kids? No it's not, but what's their best option? Of course, not all situations are like this, but for situations where underage workers are actually working, there is a strong trend that this may possibly be the case. After all, who in the right mind would send their child to work at such an early age is they don't have to? Who doesn't want to live a good life? Remember Li Ka-Ching? He started working at a young age of 15 at a watch shop. See where he is at today? Once again, I am not saying that education isn't important, I believe it is. However, under so many unique circumstances, it isn't always the most viable path one goes through. I don't support underage workers, this comment isn't meant to bring to justice to the underage worker hiring practices in China. But it just pains me to see people generalize that the goal is to 'help' underage workers. The situation isn't the same in the West, hence why we think like that. It's a well wish and a prospect to help the country though.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

sp332 14y ago

Jobs will not move to other factories, because the underage workers are still underage.

stevenbedrick 14y ago

> While it sucks for the workers at the plant that they're probably going to lose their jobs... From TFA: When new violations are found, Apple requires its suppliers to return the workers back to a school chosen by the family and finance their education. "In addition, the children must continue to receive income matching what they received when they were employed. We also follow up regularly to ensure that the children remain in school and that the suppliers continue to uphold their financial commitment," wrote Apple in its latest report.

jlgreco 14y ago
I don't understand how Apple could do that if they completely fired the company. If they are still doing business with them then they could make such demands, but if they outright sacked the company why would that company continue to do what Apple tells them to? Is the local government providing enforcement?
- rscale 14y ago
  A contract clause withholding outstanding payments until certain conditions are met would do the trick.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    I suppose such a contract would work provided the cost of fulfilling those obligations did not exceed the outstanding payment. Otherwise I would expect the company to just cut their loses.
    - Someone 14y ago
      It may not be perfect (which country's is?), but China has a justice system. A court case with Apple's weight (and money) behind it probably would be reasonably succesful in China.
      - jlgreco 14y ago

Gorbzel 14y ago

Wait...what? The outcome of vocal pressure on Apple to change? There were definitely people pushing for better visibility of the human costs of the electronics industry, but aren't we being a bit circle jerky here? Well-orgaznied and vocal campaigns? I don't know what you're talking about, but suffice it to say I'm not sure this can't be mostly attributed to Tim Cook's increased focus on supply chain and manufacturing and the human consequences thereof. Ultimately, there's clearly a net positive here: less violations of clear human rights concerns in Chinese factories. I think everyone can agree, that's a good thing. But I can't help but be worried about this notion that this is some massive "win" for a campaign pressuring Apple. This is a problem with the entire industry, and one that needs to be solved. Maybe it's a symptom of being the world's largest company, but too many hugely critical issues to geekdom (patent reform, the costs of cheap mfr labor, etc) get oversimplified in comments like the above into some postured for / against Apple and completely miss the point. It's intellectually cheap and really just getting old and preventing a lot of real good work from getting done...

Volpe 14y ago
I don't think it's a win. These underage workers likely weren't doing it against their will. So really we just fired a bunch of poor people, because we think they are too young to work... Win! Do we really think these underage workers are going to go home and play Xbox, or go to school?