5 ms·

This is the kind of study where I just have to say, "Whatever." No one believes MSFT to be unbiased here and, as for the Munich's IT group's claims/counters/rep

This is the kind of study where I just have to say, "Whatever." No one believes MSFT to be unbiased here and, as for the Munich's IT group's claims/counters/reports, no one believes theirs will be unbiased either. It's basically a "He said, she said" argument [1]. They can have reams of back and forth interviews, quotes, and reports but, in the end, it won't make me believe either side. Each side has too much at stake to be unbiased. But, internally and to their clients/staff, both sides can point at their own reports/stats and proudly parade them whilst ignoring the existence of the other side's refutation/claims. It's win/win - Munich "wins" by showing their report to their staff and bosses ("Look how much we saved!") and MSFT "wins" by showing their report to potential clients considering the same thing. Whatever. [1] http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=he%20said%20she%20said http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=he%20said%20s...: "An argument between a guy and a gal where the points made on either side can't be proven convincingly enough by either party to someone who has no clue what they're arguing about. Further exacerbated because you have no idea if either person is exaggerating or telling the truth and so nothing can be resolved."

ZeroGravitas 14y ago
"the points made on either side can't be proven convincingly enough by either party to someone who has no clue what they're arguing about." What about someone who does understand large IT infrastructure rollouts? At least one side of this is wrong, and my money is firmly on Microsoft as being the one more likely to simply make things up to suit their agenda.
- DanBC 14y ago
  > What about someone who does understand large IT infrastructure rollouts? Especially if those people are working with auditors who know the tricks for burying data. Since this is Europe it should be possible to get quite a lot of the data from Munich.
- ScottWhigham 14y ago
  my money is firmly on Microsoft as being the one more likely to simply make things up... Yes, but you've just given away the perfect counter argument to anyone who wants to make whatever you say seem like a lie/falsehood: you are clearly biased against MSFT thus whatever you say can be dismissed as "anti-MSFT". If someone can make that allegation against you - not your arguments or facts or information from the reports, mind you, but you personally - then they've won and you've lost. They've called into question your credibility. At the end of the day, a person or a small group of people have to make a decision on the believability of said studies and decide for themselves/their organization, "Should we go the way of Munich or is it safer to go w/ MSFT?" The Art of CYA is all about going the safe route - a.k.a. "No one ever got fired by choosing MSFT over open source in the enterprise."
  - ZeroGravitas 14y ago
    If we're getting right down to the dirty politics of maintaining monopolies then I think something that would give you more pause was that Microsoft did work to get someone dismissed for not choosing MSFT products (they eventually resigned after, amongst other things, newspaper stories suggested that an IT director going to open source conferences was a misuse of public funds): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_J._Quinn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_J._Quinn
    - ScottWhigham 14y ago
      I didn't think that we were getting "down to the dirty politics of maintaining monopolies" nor did I ask for evidence that MSFT did the opposite of what I wrote. Weird. If someone wanted to make a case that you are clearly a "biased individual", you would have given them ample evidence to dismiss whatever comments you make as "Comments from someone who clearly has an axe to grind." I'd challenge you to re-read our discussion from an impartial 3rd person's POV and see if it is possible that a reasonable person would come to that conclusion on their own without prodding... Now have someone prodding them, someone who is their boss or a peer in a conference room that other people respect... It's fine to have your opinion but when you go out of your way to make points that people weren't asking you to make, it seems as though you have an agenda.

ZeroGravitas 14y ago

"the points made on either side can't be proven convincingly enough by either party to someone who has no clue what they're arguing about." What about someone who does understand large IT infrastructure rollouts? At least one side of this is wrong, and my money is firmly on Microsoft as being the one more likely to simply make things up to suit their agenda.

DanBC 14y ago
> What about someone who does understand large IT infrastructure rollouts? Especially if those people are working with auditors who know the tricks for burying data. Since this is Europe it should be possible to get quite a lot of the data from Munich.
ScottWhigham 14y ago
my money is firmly on Microsoft as being the one more likely to simply make things up... Yes, but you've just given away the perfect counter argument to anyone who wants to make whatever you say seem like a lie/falsehood: you are clearly biased against MSFT thus whatever you say can be dismissed as "anti-MSFT". If someone can make that allegation against you - not your arguments or facts or information from the reports, mind you, but you personally - then they've won and you've lost. They've called into question your credibility. At the end of the day, a person or a small group of people have to make a decision on the believability of said studies and decide for themselves/their organization, "Should we go the way of Munich or is it safer to go w/ MSFT?" The Art of CYA is all about going the safe route - a.k.a. "No one ever got fired by choosing MSFT over open source in the enterprise."
- ZeroGravitas 14y ago
  If we're getting right down to the dirty politics of maintaining monopolies then I think something that would give you more pause was that Microsoft did work to get someone dismissed for not choosing MSFT products (they eventually resigned after, amongst other things, newspaper stories suggested that an IT director going to open source conferences was a misuse of public funds): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_J._Quinn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_J._Quinn
  - ScottWhigham 14y ago
    I didn't think that we were getting "down to the dirty politics of maintaining monopolies" nor did I ask for evidence that MSFT did the opposite of what I wrote. Weird. If someone wanted to make a case that you are clearly a "biased individual", you would have given them ample evidence to dismiss whatever comments you make as "Comments from someone who clearly has an axe to grind." I'd challenge you to re-read our discussion from an impartial 3rd person's POV and see if it is possible that a reasonable person would come to that conclusion on their own without prodding... Now have someone prodding them, someone who is their boss or a peer in a conference room that other people respect... It's fine to have your opinion but when you go out of your way to make points that people weren't asking you to make, it seems as though you have an agenda.