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You can't pay income taxes with bitcoins. If you make income in bitcoins, if you are an American at least, you will need to pay taxes on that income. In this

You can't pay income taxes with bitcoins. If you make income in bitcoins, if you are an American at least, you will need to pay taxes on that income. In this way, bitcoins cannot replace the dollar for American citizens. The most it can ever do is be a stable exchange currency.

yuvadam 14y ago
You don't have to pay income taxes on bitcoin.
- cube13 14y ago
  No, you just need to pay income tax on the USD you get from converting the bitcoins.
  - 0x0 14y ago
    I think you're wrong. What if you got paid in EUR? Could you delay income tax by not converting EUR->USD?
    - lotharbot 14y ago
      http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Foreign-Currency-and-Currency-Exchange-Rates http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Em... > "you must immediately translate into dollars all items of income, expense, etc. (including taxes), that you receive, pay, or accrue in a foreign currency and that will affect computation of your income tax. Use the exchange rate prevailing when you receive, pay, or accrue the item." This is fairly straightforward -- if you get paid in EUR, you have to use the exchange rate from when you get paid and declare your income in equivalent USD. Given that bitcoin calls itself a currency, I would expect the IRS to treat it the same way.
- brian_cloutier 14y ago
  That is exactly the kind of thinking that will potentially get us into this trouble in the first place. If you have an income you pay taxes on it, end of story. If you think some income is exempt just because it's a little harder to trace and don't declare it, you are committing tax evasion.
  - yuvadam 14y ago
    I'm not at all advocating tax evasion, rather pointing to the fact that bitcoin is currently terra incognita which the government does not know how to handle. As far a the country I pay taxes in is concerned, if I told them I'd like to declare an income of 100BTC, they'd have no fucking clue what weird funny money I'm talking about. Governmental recognition and adoption of BTC alongside existing currency is the best case scenario for everyone, governments and BTC community alike.
    - brian_cloutier 14y ago
      In America, at least, you should denominate your earnings in USD, even if they are held in a foreign currency. "If you receive all or part of your income or pay some or all of your expenses in foreign currency, you must translate the foreign currency into U.S. dollars." http://www.irs.gov/publications/p54/ch01.html#en_US_2012_publink100047340 http://www.irs.gov/publications/p54/ch01.html#en_US_2012_pub...
- jerf 14y ago
  You have to pay income taxes on barter transactions in which no money changed hands at all: http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html Please note the domain name of the link. If you want to model your BitCoin transaction as a barter transaction, the IRS probably won't mind too much. (I'm not promising the degree to which they mind will be zero, but it'll certainly be substantially less than if you give them no money.) Either way, they're going to want and get taxes based on a fair market value. And if you don't pay them, either way, you're going to be in trouble if they find you. They're a lot more difficult to confuse on the basic matter of "does the IRS get some money out of this transaction" than some people seem to think.
tomjen3 14y ago
This is probably not a big deal for silk road, but what exactly is the rules for paying income tax made with a foreign currency, outside of the country? Do you have to pay before you bring the money back to the US, or only after? At what rate of exchange?
- melvinmt 14y ago
  The US has "world tax" which means they can tax their citizens all over the world (no matter what currency). It's not even limited to citizens, it actually extends to anyone who's living in the US for the majority of the year.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
melvinmt 14y ago
Erh, everything (ok, most things) has a dollar value, especially bitcoins whose USD value is constantly tracked by numerous exchanges. It's slightly harder for the IRS but not as hard as finding out about your Swiss bank account. As long as you don't report income you're simply conducting tax evasion.

yuvadam 14y ago

You don't have to pay income taxes on bitcoin.

cube13 14y ago
No, you just need to pay income tax on the USD you get from converting the bitcoins.
- 0x0 14y ago
  I think you're wrong. What if you got paid in EUR? Could you delay income tax by not converting EUR->USD?
  - lotharbot 14y ago
    http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Foreign-Currency-and-Currency-Exchange-Rates http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Em... > "you must immediately translate into dollars all items of income, expense, etc. (including taxes), that you receive, pay, or accrue in a foreign currency and that will affect computation of your income tax. Use the exchange rate prevailing when you receive, pay, or accrue the item." This is fairly straightforward -- if you get paid in EUR, you have to use the exchange rate from when you get paid and declare your income in equivalent USD. Given that bitcoin calls itself a currency, I would expect the IRS to treat it the same way.
brian_cloutier 14y ago
That is exactly the kind of thinking that will potentially get us into this trouble in the first place. If you have an income you pay taxes on it, end of story. If you think some income is exempt just because it's a little harder to trace and don't declare it, you are committing tax evasion.
- yuvadam 14y ago
  I'm not at all advocating tax evasion, rather pointing to the fact that bitcoin is currently terra incognita which the government does not know how to handle. As far a the country I pay taxes in is concerned, if I told them I'd like to declare an income of 100BTC, they'd have no fucking clue what weird funny money I'm talking about. Governmental recognition and adoption of BTC alongside existing currency is the best case scenario for everyone, governments and BTC community alike.
  - brian_cloutier 14y ago
    In America, at least, you should denominate your earnings in USD, even if they are held in a foreign currency. "If you receive all or part of your income or pay some or all of your expenses in foreign currency, you must translate the foreign currency into U.S. dollars." http://www.irs.gov/publications/p54/ch01.html#en_US_2012_publink100047340 http://www.irs.gov/publications/p54/ch01.html#en_US_2012_pub...
jerf 14y ago
You have to pay income taxes on barter transactions in which no money changed hands at all: http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html Please note the domain name of the link. If you want to model your BitCoin transaction as a barter transaction, the IRS probably won't mind too much. (I'm not promising the degree to which they mind will be zero, but it'll certainly be substantially less than if you give them no money.) Either way, they're going to want and get taxes based on a fair market value. And if you don't pay them, either way, you're going to be in trouble if they find you. They're a lot more difficult to confuse on the basic matter of "does the IRS get some money out of this transaction" than some people seem to think.

tomjen3 14y ago

This is probably not a big deal for silk road, but what exactly is the rules for paying income tax made with a foreign currency, outside of the country? Do you have to pay before you bring the money back to the US, or only after? At what rate of exchange?

melvinmt 14y ago
The US has "world tax" which means they can tax their citizens all over the world (no matter what currency). It's not even limited to citizens, it actually extends to anyone who's living in the US for the majority of the year.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

melvinmt 14y ago

Erh, everything (ok, most things) has a dollar value, especially bitcoins whose USD value is constantly tracked by numerous exchanges. It's slightly harder for the IRS but not as hard as finding out about your Swiss bank account. As long as you don't report income you're simply conducting tax evasion.