4 ms·

This is a well argued essay promoting that children should be allow to vote, not on the basis of age, but by demonstrating a grasp of civics and government by e

by russell 18y ago

This is a well argued essay promoting that children should be allow to vote, not on the basis of age, but by demonstrating a grasp of civics and government by examination, for example. I was skeptical, but he convinced me. If a kid learns how our government works and what civic responsibility means, why not? The incentive and prestige of early voting might lead to a more responsible populace. As he says, with educated children voting we might not have had Bush the Younger.

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
anamax 18y ago
> If a kid learns how our government works and what civic responsibility means, why not? If an adult can't demonstrate knowledge of how our govt works and what civic responsibility means, does said adult get to vote? BTW - Which definition of "civic responsibility" are we using?
- russell 18y ago
  There was some discussion of adult knowledge, but he felt, as do I, that things stay the same for adults. There has been too much in the way of using literacy tests to keep minorities from voting in our past. Adult requirements should stay the same. Civic responsibility was mine, not his, but I was thinking in terms of learning about local government and institutions. I just happen to think that our society has a little too much expectation of entitlements and too little of individual responsibility and contribution. As far as test content (me again), it should be free of current political controversy. How laws are made and passed, but probably not on how to bribe a Senator. Maybe on something on how citizens get change outside of government, but probably more on the voting process. After all voting is the goal of the process.
  - anamax 18y ago
    > How laws are made and passed, but probably not on how to bribe a Senator. That seems backwards.
karl11 18y ago
It bothers me that someone trying to present evidence on whether or not children should vote needs to throw in political commentary on how voting minors would have averted the disaster that was George W. Bush. How can someone be scientifically or philosophically credible if he/she is too immature to resist political jabs when presenting an apolitical argument? On top of this, it puts off people who might otherwise be intrigued by the author's thoughts but aren't after reading unnecessary criticisms of their own.
- jpwagner 18y ago
  I stopped reading at the Bush comment, not out of offense, but out of disappointment that I was spending my time reading something that lost its dignity (isn't this a perfect example of what he alluded to never doing early in the essay?)
Tichy 18y ago
Haven't read the whole article, but my feeling is that basing eligibility to vote on passing a test might be a bad idea. It could end up meaning "you are allowed to vote, if you will vote for the right thing", where the right thing would presumably be voting for the people in power at the time of the introduction of the test.
- bcneige 18y ago
  The argument against that is that it has the same effect as the poll tax--keeping the lower classes out. It is claimed that this discriminates against the races with lower literate populations.
  - Tichy 18y ago
    Similar to what I was saying I guess. Although I don't see why race has to enter into the argument.
  - gjm11 18y ago
    That's one argument, but I think the parent comment was making a different argument: whoever gets to write the test gets to decide what matters, and what guarantee do you have that the test will really be testing value-neutral relevant facts, or (even if it is) that the choice of which facts won't introduce bias? I expect it wouldn't be hard to come up with a test for which (1) almost all the experts agree on what all the answers are, but (2) if you select from the general population on the basis of what those answers are you get a sample that's politically biased. (Ludicrous example: suppose the test gives you lots of quotations from Ayn Rand's fiction and asks you which character said what. The answers are totally uncontroversial, but if only people who answered correctly could vote you might just happen to get a distinctly more libertarian government. Do something similar with the works of Karl Marx and you'd get a distinctly more socialist government. And so on. Of course in practice someone seeking to bias the test would do it in more subtle ways.)

by russell 18y ago

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

anamax 18y ago

> If a kid learns how our government works and what civic responsibility means, why not? If an adult can't demonstrate knowledge of how our govt works and what civic responsibility means, does said adult get to vote? BTW - Which definition of "civic responsibility" are we using?

russell 18y ago
There was some discussion of adult knowledge, but he felt, as do I, that things stay the same for adults. There has been too much in the way of using literacy tests to keep minorities from voting in our past. Adult requirements should stay the same. Civic responsibility was mine, not his, but I was thinking in terms of learning about local government and institutions. I just happen to think that our society has a little too much expectation of entitlements and too little of individual responsibility and contribution. As far as test content (me again), it should be free of current political controversy. How laws are made and passed, but probably not on how to bribe a Senator. Maybe on something on how citizens get change outside of government, but probably more on the voting process. After all voting is the goal of the process.
- anamax 18y ago
  > How laws are made and passed, but probably not on how to bribe a Senator. That seems backwards.

karl11 18y ago

It bothers me that someone trying to present evidence on whether or not children should vote needs to throw in political commentary on how voting minors would have averted the disaster that was George W. Bush. How can someone be scientifically or philosophically credible if he/she is too immature to resist political jabs when presenting an apolitical argument? On top of this, it puts off people who might otherwise be intrigued by the author's thoughts but aren't after reading unnecessary criticisms of their own.

jpwagner 18y ago
I stopped reading at the Bush comment, not out of offense, but out of disappointment that I was spending my time reading something that lost its dignity (isn't this a perfect example of what he alluded to never doing early in the essay?)

Tichy 18y ago

Haven't read the whole article, but my feeling is that basing eligibility to vote on passing a test might be a bad idea. It could end up meaning "you are allowed to vote, if you will vote for the right thing", where the right thing would presumably be voting for the people in power at the time of the introduction of the test.

bcneige 18y ago
The argument against that is that it has the same effect as the poll tax--keeping the lower classes out. It is claimed that this discriminates against the races with lower literate populations.
- Tichy 18y ago
  Similar to what I was saying I guess. Although I don't see why race has to enter into the argument.
- gjm11 18y ago
  That's one argument, but I think the parent comment was making a different argument: whoever gets to write the test gets to decide what matters, and what guarantee do you have that the test will really be testing value-neutral relevant facts, or (even if it is) that the choice of which facts won't introduce bias? I expect it wouldn't be hard to come up with a test for which (1) almost all the experts agree on what all the answers are, but (2) if you select from the general population on the basis of what those answers are you get a sample that's politically biased. (Ludicrous example: suppose the test gives you lots of quotations from Ayn Rand's fiction and asks you which character said what. The answers are totally uncontroversial, but if only people who answered correctly could vote you might just happen to get a distinctly more libertarian government. Do something similar with the works of Karl Marx and you'd get a distinctly more socialist government. And so on. Of course in practice someone seeking to bias the test would do it in more subtle ways.)