4 ms·

Still, I can't help but feel that maybe Google have the final piece of the puzzle. We've had computers and sensors powerful enough for decades, only Google have

by coopdog 14y ago

Still, I can't help but feel that maybe Google have the final piece of the puzzle. We've had computers and sensors powerful enough for decades, only Google have all of that maps data, polished again and again by android users using maps (and now Ingress) to make it more reliable. Google almost specialise at crunching massive data into useful products, and building reliable supersystems from millions of unreliable subsystems. Car companies might have some software knowledge these days but they really are a long way from the capabilities Google has. They solve car problems, but it might turn out that this is an information system problem.

warfangle 14y ago
The quick compare, of course, is Android / Google Maps turn-by-turn directions and Garmin.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
millstone 14y ago
Can you elaborate on how you think that map data is important? I would expect that mapping data at best gives you a route - something the user could supply. Naively, I would think that the hard problems are responding to obstacles in the road, cross walks, stop lights, etc., where map data won't help much.
- mtgx 14y ago
  Even Google's own data isn't perfect. A couple of years ago someone even tried to sue Google for "getting her on a highway" and then having an accident. I think she was walking, and obviously she can't blame Google for not noticing the highway! But with self-driving cars, it's different. A car landing on a highway, when it's not supposed to be there, and then getting into an accident, is not good news. So that's why I think accurate map data will be very important for this.
  - Someone 14y ago
    Mapping data will be important, but not to prevent accidents. Maps will not be 100% accurate, so even with perfect maps, cars will end up on roads they think aren't highways while in fact, they are. There also will be newly one-way streets that aren't in the mapping database yet, roads closed due to construction or accidents, etc. Yes, both will be rare, but multiplied by millions of cars (necessary to get the 'worth trillions' part)? Not so. So, let's say you are driving a vehicle that isn't allowed on the highway but incorrectly takes one. How do you think maps will help with the "and then getting into an accident" part?
- coopdog 14y ago
  My (admittedly limited) knowledge of the cars is that they 'cheat' a lot, in that they don't just look at sensors to make decisions rather they look at a map of data to determine ie approach this corner at maximum 40mph, pot holes on left side of road at this point, always stop at this intersection as it's tricky to see, etc. So the parallel between improving maps data with phones will be improving the car detail map data with cars.
moconnor 14y ago
Several companies have high-quality mapping data. What do you think powers most sat-navs?
cynwoody 14y ago
> We've had computers and sensors powerful enough for decades, only Google have all of that maps data, polished again and again by android users using maps (and now Ingress) to make it more reliable. Of what relevance is Google's map data (which they buy from vendors)? Google's map data doesn't tell the car if a pedestrian or another car or a fire hydrant is where it is about to go. The car has to figure that out all by itself and in real time. Map data is neither necessary nor sufficient to drive a car. At the scale where a driver-less car operates, the map data is only relevant as to whether it's managed to get its owner where he wants to go. If that question is still relevant, then it has succeeded.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- jpatokal 14y ago
  You don't quite understand the scale at which Google operates. What they're essentially doing is building a 3D model of the entire world, using their own data (did you think those Street View cars were just taking pretty pictures?). By comparing the real world against the model, they'll be instantly able to distinguish between the fire hydrant (which was there yesterday) and the pedestrian (who wasn't). No algorithm relying purely on real-time data will be able to compete.
  - taligent 14y ago
    I don't think you understand the scale of the world. Street View is YEARS out of date in most major international cities and doesn't exist in the majority of smaller cities. It would be dangerous borderline criminal for a self-driving car to be relying on it for anything important.
    - danielweber 14y ago
      A driverless car is already loaded up with all the sensors you need to fully map the road. Google's cars start with an extremely detailed map of the road, including where the lanes are and where everything should be. And, every time a Google car drives the road, that map can be updated. This obviously isn't ready to deploy nation-wide right now, but there's a pretty obvious growth path here. If you were to buy a Google car for your commute, you might have to manually drive it for several days in order for it to learn everything it needs to know. Eventually, the other self-driving cars on the road will also be helping build a map for you, and you for them.
taligent 14y ago
> only Google have all of that maps data No they don't. Google licenses the majority of its data from third parties. Or have you never seen a sat-nav system before ?

by coopdog 14y ago

warfangle 14y ago

The quick compare, of course, is Android / Google Maps turn-by-turn directions and Garmin.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

millstone 14y ago

Can you elaborate on how you think that map data is important? I would expect that mapping data at best gives you a route - something the user could supply. Naively, I would think that the hard problems are responding to obstacles in the road, cross walks, stop lights, etc., where map data won't help much.

mtgx 14y ago
Even Google's own data isn't perfect. A couple of years ago someone even tried to sue Google for "getting her on a highway" and then having an accident. I think she was walking, and obviously she can't blame Google for not noticing the highway! But with self-driving cars, it's different. A car landing on a highway, when it's not supposed to be there, and then getting into an accident, is not good news. So that's why I think accurate map data will be very important for this.
- Someone 14y ago
  Mapping data will be important, but not to prevent accidents. Maps will not be 100% accurate, so even with perfect maps, cars will end up on roads they think aren't highways while in fact, they are. There also will be newly one-way streets that aren't in the mapping database yet, roads closed due to construction or accidents, etc. Yes, both will be rare, but multiplied by millions of cars (necessary to get the 'worth trillions' part)? Not so. So, let's say you are driving a vehicle that isn't allowed on the highway but incorrectly takes one. How do you think maps will help with the "and then getting into an accident" part?
coopdog 14y ago
My (admittedly limited) knowledge of the cars is that they 'cheat' a lot, in that they don't just look at sensors to make decisions rather they look at a map of data to determine ie approach this corner at maximum 40mph, pot holes on left side of road at this point, always stop at this intersection as it's tricky to see, etc. So the parallel between improving maps data with phones will be improving the car detail map data with cars.

moconnor 14y ago

Several companies have high-quality mapping data. What do you think powers most sat-navs?

cynwoody 14y ago

> We've had computers and sensors powerful enough for decades, only Google have all of that maps data, polished again and again by android users using maps (and now Ingress) to make it more reliable. Of what relevance is Google's map data (which they buy from vendors)? Google's map data doesn't tell the car if a pedestrian or another car or a fire hydrant is where it is about to go. The car has to figure that out all by itself and in real time. Map data is neither necessary nor sufficient to drive a car. At the scale where a driver-less car operates, the map data is only relevant as to whether it's managed to get its owner where he wants to go. If that question is still relevant, then it has succeeded.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
jpatokal 14y ago
You don't quite understand the scale at which Google operates. What they're essentially doing is building a 3D model of the entire world, using their own data (did you think those Street View cars were just taking pretty pictures?). By comparing the real world against the model, they'll be instantly able to distinguish between the fire hydrant (which was there yesterday) and the pedestrian (who wasn't). No algorithm relying purely on real-time data will be able to compete.
- taligent 14y ago
  I don't think you understand the scale of the world. Street View is YEARS out of date in most major international cities and doesn't exist in the majority of smaller cities. It would be dangerous borderline criminal for a self-driving car to be relying on it for anything important.
  - danielweber 14y ago
    A driverless car is already loaded up with all the sensors you need to fully map the road. Google's cars start with an extremely detailed map of the road, including where the lanes are and where everything should be. And, every time a Google car drives the road, that map can be updated. This obviously isn't ready to deploy nation-wide right now, but there's a pretty obvious growth path here. If you were to buy a Google car for your commute, you might have to manually drive it for several days in order for it to learn everything it needs to know. Eventually, the other self-driving cars on the road will also be helping build a map for you, and you for them.

taligent 14y ago

> only Google have all of that maps data No they don't. Google licenses the majority of its data from third parties. Or have you never seen a sat-nav system before ?