6 ms·

Maybe before we spend a lot of time complaining about how federal prosecutors are unsympathetic assholes, we should start by examining our own community.

by pg 14y ago

carlio 14y ago
A similar sentiment: http://www.shirky.com/weblog/2013/01/remembering-aaron-by-taking-care-of-each-other/ http://www.shirky.com/weblog/2013/01/remembering-aaron-by-ta...
heartbreak 14y ago
Better yet - let's do both.
jcampbell1 14y ago
Death, prison, and felony convictions are not the same as public ridicule and hurt feelings. Only a nazi would equate such things. What?
- dmix 14y ago
  I'm also not seeing the connection here. A few mean tweets over code quality vs threatening someone with life sentences over downloading documents is a very poor analogy on how we should be spending our time.
  - dbul 14y ago
    Both of you seem to think he said "instead." Consider the clauses rephrased: "Maybe we should start by examining our own community, before ..." Why? I'd guess because the blog post refers to celebrity hackers bullying another hacker. The community -- more than just these few guys -- can't even behave civilly. It's a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
    - dmix 14y ago
      Compare the cause-and-effect of both the situations. One can send someone to jail for life and destroy their finances, reputation etc... the other can hurt someones feelings. Contending the latter should be addressed before (or even comparatively) to the former is what I take issue with.
      - tptacek 14y ago
        Do you really think Paul Graham doesn't know the difference between someone being insulted on Twitter and someone being threatened with federal prison time? You don't think maybe it's you that are missing something, and not him? Because if my response to something he wrote depending on him not noticing the difference between prison and twitter, I would worry that I was missing something. No, wait, I wouldn't; I like giving him shit.
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        papsosouid 14y ago
        He can still make a fallacious and ignorant comment while being aware of the difference.
        achompas 14y ago
        The probability that he, or any other decent, civilized person, would make that comment is very, very low. Let's admit that parent, GP etc. are trying to pick on pg and move on.
        papsosouid 14y ago
        He did make it. It is still there, you can read it. I am not sure what you are trying to convey.
        chc 14y ago
        The actual objection here, the reason why pg's comment is "fallacious and ignorant", is a bit fuzzy. People have pointed out a difference between HN users and federal prosecutors, but not why that difference is important. I can only think of one possible line of reasoning, but it's unbelievably hollow. Are you sincerely arguing "It's OK for me to be an unsympathetic asshole because I don't send people to jail"?
- ttflee 14y ago
  Of course, it's the Godwin's law.
- thaumaturgy 14y ago
  HN's collective reading comprehension seems to have dipped lately. Fortunately, pg is usually concise enough that we can use this as an exercise: "Maybe before..." "before" merely implies order. It does not mean "instead of". It means, "this first, then that." "...federal prosecutors are unsympathetic assholes..." The subject here is not jail sentences or felony convictions or legal antics. The subject here is sympathy. For example, a statement made on HN which would fit pg's subject is, "federal prosecutors had no sympathy for...". "...we should start by examining our own community." The implication here is that our own community is also often unsympathetic and full of assholish behavior. pg was not comparing public ridicule and hurt feelings to death, prison, or felony convictions. He was only suggesting that one of the complaints here over Aaron's case has been that the prosecutors were "unsympathetic", even though our own community is also unsympathetic. I have no idea how you could have misinterpreted a single statement of 24 words that badly.
  - jakebellacera 14y ago
    jcampbell1 and pg are bringing up a conversation from a another thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5110270 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5110270.
    - thaumaturgy 14y ago
      Hmm. pg and jcampbell1's comments predate that thread by several hours, and I don't see the connection anyway. Did you link the wrong thread, or am I missing something?
  - jcampbell1 14y ago
    I was mainly making a joke, but the content of the statement was a problem. Let's consider the relative merits and priorities of "spending time complaining about federal prosecutors" vs. "examining our own community". The former is about trying to change our society to make it more just, the latter is aimless introspection. The comment was a bit of a troll and not insightful so I trolled back. If this were not pg's website, I am certain you wouldn't be defending the statement because it lacks substance.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
rdl 14y ago
I wonder if the cause is the same in both cases. It's a lot easier to be an asshole to people in certain structured formats -- prosecution, online chat (IRC being the ideal, but even email, twitter, and blogs lead to aggression). It's harder in person, or in other formats (essays?).

Maybe before we spend a lot of time complaining about how federal prosecutors are unsympathetic assholes, we should start by examining our own community.

by pg 14y ago

Maybe before we spend a lot of time complaining about how federal prosecutors are unsympathetic assholes, we should start by examining our own community.

carlio 14y ago

A similar sentiment: http://www.shirky.com/weblog/2013/01/remembering-aaron-by-taking-care-of-each-other/ http://www.shirky.com/weblog/2013/01/remembering-aaron-by-ta...

heartbreak 14y ago

Better yet - let's do both.

jcampbell1 14y ago

Death, prison, and felony convictions are not the same as public ridicule and hurt feelings. Only a nazi would equate such things. What?

dmix 14y ago
I'm also not seeing the connection here. A few mean tweets over code quality vs threatening someone with life sentences over downloading documents is a very poor analogy on how we should be spending our time.
- dbul 14y ago
  Both of you seem to think he said "instead." Consider the clauses rephrased: "Maybe we should start by examining our own community, before ..." Why? I'd guess because the blog post refers to celebrity hackers bullying another hacker. The community -- more than just these few guys -- can't even behave civilly. It's a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
  - dmix 14y ago
    Compare the cause-and-effect of both the situations. One can send someone to jail for life and destroy their finances, reputation etc... the other can hurt someones feelings. Contending the latter should be addressed before (or even comparatively) to the former is what I take issue with.
    - tptacek 14y ago
      Do you really think Paul Graham doesn't know the difference between someone being insulted on Twitter and someone being threatened with federal prison time? You don't think maybe it's you that are missing something, and not him? Because if my response to something he wrote depending on him not noticing the difference between prison and twitter, I would worry that I was missing something. No, wait, I wouldn't; I like giving him shit.
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      - papsosouid 14y ago
        He can still make a fallacious and ignorant comment while being aware of the difference.
        achompas 14y ago
        The probability that he, or any other decent, civilized person, would make that comment is very, very low. Let's admit that parent, GP etc. are trying to pick on pg and move on.
        papsosouid 14y ago
        He did make it. It is still there, you can read it. I am not sure what you are trying to convey.
        chc 14y ago
        The actual objection here, the reason why pg's comment is "fallacious and ignorant", is a bit fuzzy. People have pointed out a difference between HN users and federal prosecutors, but not why that difference is important. I can only think of one possible line of reasoning, but it's unbelievably hollow. Are you sincerely arguing "It's OK for me to be an unsympathetic asshole because I don't send people to jail"?
ttflee 14y ago
Of course, it's the Godwin's law.
thaumaturgy 14y ago
HN's collective reading comprehension seems to have dipped lately. Fortunately, pg is usually concise enough that we can use this as an exercise: "Maybe before..." "before" merely implies order. It does not mean "instead of". It means, "this first, then that." "...federal prosecutors are unsympathetic assholes..." The subject here is not jail sentences or felony convictions or legal antics. The subject here is sympathy. For example, a statement made on HN which would fit pg's subject is, "federal prosecutors had no sympathy for...". "...we should start by examining our own community." The implication here is that our own community is also often unsympathetic and full of assholish behavior. pg was not comparing public ridicule and hurt feelings to death, prison, or felony convictions. He was only suggesting that one of the complaints here over Aaron's case has been that the prosecutors were "unsympathetic", even though our own community is also unsympathetic. I have no idea how you could have misinterpreted a single statement of 24 words that badly.
- jakebellacera 14y ago
  jcampbell1 and pg are bringing up a conversation from a another thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5110270 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5110270.
  - thaumaturgy 14y ago
    Hmm. pg and jcampbell1's comments predate that thread by several hours, and I don't see the connection anyway. Did you link the wrong thread, or am I missing something?
- jcampbell1 14y ago
  I was mainly making a joke, but the content of the statement was a problem. Let's consider the relative merits and priorities of "spending time complaining about federal prosecutors" vs. "examining our own community". The former is about trying to change our society to make it more just, the latter is aimless introspection. The comment was a bit of a troll and not insightful so I trolled back. If this were not pg's website, I am certain you wouldn't be defending the statement because it lacks substance.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

rdl 14y ago

I wonder if the cause is the same in both cases. It's a lot easier to be an asshole to people in certain structured formats -- prosecution, online chat (IRC being the ideal, but even email, twitter, and blogs lead to aggression). It's harder in person, or in other formats (essays?).