4 ms·

Not trolling, genuinely curious, is it a crime to say "I might do this" vs. actually doing it? What is the law that's broken? I have to agree with neil, thoug

Not trolling, genuinely curious, is it a crime to say "I might do this" vs. actually doing it? What is the law that's broken? I have to agree with neil, though I'm not suggesting you're doing this: > our dedication to a principle is tested when it protects people that we don't like

rayiner 14y ago
> Not trolling, genuinely curious, is it a crime to say "I might do this" vs. actually doing it? What is the law that's broken? You're oversimplifying the situation. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_Penal_Code http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_Penal_Code. As I said, crime = intent + action. If you kill someone, and you had no bad intent (it was neither your purpose to kill them nor were you acting negligently), then there is no crime. At the same time, if you fully intend to kill someone, but don't take any action consistent with that intent, there is no crime. The two factors must also exist simultaneously. If you intend to kill someone, and buy a gun, you can be charged with attempted murder. If you fully intend to kill someone today, but then change your mind, and tomorrow buy a gun because of a rash of burglaries tomorrow, then there is no crime. Now, obviously we can't get inside someone's head. So we infer intent from action. But we must always remember that the focus is not the action, but what the action says as evidence of the person's intent. And no matter what intent is inferred, there must still be independent action towards committing the crime. So no, it's not illegal to say "I might do this." But, saying "I might do this" can amount to evidence that you intend, in fact, to do this, and if you independently take some other action consistent with this intent, you can be charged with an attempted crime.
- AnthonyMouse 14y ago
  Is that really right? So let me get this straight: If I buy a gun with the notion that I intend to hunt a bear with it, maybe not even knowing that it's illegal, then I read on the internet that bears are super deadly and stay home, I'm still guilty of attempting to hunt a bear because I bought a gun intending to hunt a bear with it? What if I go to the beach at night not knowing that you can't enter the beach after sunset, then when I get there I see the sign and turn back without going in? Attempted trespassing on the beach after sunset for driving to the beach with that intent? It seems like there has to be a piece missing somewhere. I mean what if my intent is to do something I'm not sure is a crime but in actual fact is and the act in furtherance of it is to call my lawyer and ask where it's actually a crime? I have to be missing something here.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    Note that I'm talking about the Model Penal Code, which is strongly influential on American criminal law since the last 50 years, but isn't 100% the actual law anywhere. Attempts are one of those areas where the MPC is probably too academic and actual states diverge. E.g. the MPC punishes attempts as harshly as the actual crimes, because it focuses so heavily on intent. In the MPC, there's (at least) three backstops. 1) The act in furtherance must be a "substantial step" and "strongly corroborative of criminal intent." The latter language creates a sliding scale for the former. Building a dirty bomb might be a substantial step towards a terrorist plot, but "attempted bear hunting" probably requires a park ranger to find you aiming at a bear. 2) Abandonment of the plan is a complete defense. 3) The mens rea for attempts is high. Actual crimes that require only reckless intent require purposeful intent for attempts at committing that crime. The MPC indulges itself in a little bit of "if a tree falls in the forest" thinking, but largely because it tries to take principles to their logical conclusions. There is an interesting primer on it: https://www.law.upenn.edu/fac/phrobins/intromodpencode.pdf https://www.law.upenn.edu/fac/phrobins/intromodpencode.pdf.

rayiner 14y ago

> Not trolling, genuinely curious, is it a crime to say "I might do this" vs. actually doing it? What is the law that's broken? You're oversimplifying the situation. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_Penal_Code http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_Penal_Code. As I said, crime = intent + action. If you kill someone, and you had no bad intent (it was neither your purpose to kill them nor were you acting negligently), then there is no crime. At the same time, if you fully intend to kill someone, but don't take any action consistent with that intent, there is no crime. The two factors must also exist simultaneously. If you intend to kill someone, and buy a gun, you can be charged with attempted murder. If you fully intend to kill someone today, but then change your mind, and tomorrow buy a gun because of a rash of burglaries tomorrow, then there is no crime. Now, obviously we can't get inside someone's head. So we infer intent from action. But we must always remember that the focus is not the action, but what the action says as evidence of the person's intent. And no matter what intent is inferred, there must still be independent action towards committing the crime. So no, it's not illegal to say "I might do this." But, saying "I might do this" can amount to evidence that you intend, in fact, to do this, and if you independently take some other action consistent with this intent, you can be charged with an attempted crime.

AnthonyMouse 14y ago
Is that really right? So let me get this straight: If I buy a gun with the notion that I intend to hunt a bear with it, maybe not even knowing that it's illegal, then I read on the internet that bears are super deadly and stay home, I'm still guilty of attempting to hunt a bear because I bought a gun intending to hunt a bear with it? What if I go to the beach at night not knowing that you can't enter the beach after sunset, then when I get there I see the sign and turn back without going in? Attempted trespassing on the beach after sunset for driving to the beach with that intent? It seems like there has to be a piece missing somewhere. I mean what if my intent is to do something I'm not sure is a crime but in actual fact is and the act in furtherance of it is to call my lawyer and ask where it's actually a crime? I have to be missing something here.
- rayiner 14y ago
  Note that I'm talking about the Model Penal Code, which is strongly influential on American criminal law since the last 50 years, but isn't 100% the actual law anywhere. Attempts are one of those areas where the MPC is probably too academic and actual states diverge. E.g. the MPC punishes attempts as harshly as the actual crimes, because it focuses so heavily on intent. In the MPC, there's (at least) three backstops. 1) The act in furtherance must be a "substantial step" and "strongly corroborative of criminal intent." The latter language creates a sliding scale for the former. Building a dirty bomb might be a substantial step towards a terrorist plot, but "attempted bear hunting" probably requires a park ranger to find you aiming at a bear. 2) Abandonment of the plan is a complete defense. 3) The mens rea for attempts is high. Actual crimes that require only reckless intent require purposeful intent for attempts at committing that crime. The MPC indulges itself in a little bit of "if a tree falls in the forest" thinking, but largely because it tries to take principles to their logical conclusions. There is an interesting primer on it: https://www.law.upenn.edu/fac/phrobins/intromodpencode.pdf https://www.law.upenn.edu/fac/phrobins/intromodpencode.pdf.