4 ms·

By insanity I mean, "severe mental illness", which I don't think you understand (and you should be thankful for that). It seems to be extremely painful for the

By insanity I mean, "severe mental illness", which I don't think you understand (and you should be thankful for that). It seems to be extremely painful for the individual, and it's horrible for the people around that person. I don't classify people with occasional (but harmless) strange thoughts or paranormal beliefs as "insane". That's part of being human. Over a billion people believe that a virgin birth occurred over 2000 years ago. I personally think they're wrong, but I wouldn't call them insane or delusional. That belief, standing alone, is harmless. I have no problem with people who choose to explore alternate states of consciousness, whether through meditation, brainwave entrainment, sensory deprivation, or psychedelics. I don't think they're "insane" for doing so. Most people who use LSD or psilocybin come out of the experience with no lasting harm. Albert Hoffman, who discovered LSD, used it into his 80s with no health problems. (He lived to be 102.) However, if you spend significant time in a hipster enclave (e.g. Williamsburg) you see the long-term effects for people of certain mental patterns. The problem is that the people who are most attracted to frequent psychedelic use are also those, in my opinion, most vulnerable to the mental problems that this lifestyle can exacerbate. Cocaine and alcohol are extremely dangerous, but everyone knows that. I think the danger of psychedelics (which are biologically non-toxic) is that they can appeal to an experience-chasing mentality, and that they sometimes become entwined with a pattern of self-medication for an existing mental problem that would be better treated by a real psychiatrist. I've altered my consciousness a lot over the course of my life, and won't get into details (real name) but I haven't used any of these drugs for years. I don't even drink, except for an occasional beer with dinner. Drugs are not necessary. The way I think of it is that altered consciousness is like a wilderness. Meditation is like riding your bike into it, in the sense that if you're not in shape, you won't go very far but you'll be able to go back out. Keep riding, and you'll be able to go deeper over time. Psychedelics are more like hitch-hiking. You catch a ride, can go deep into the thick of it, and end up with no idea where you've landed. You hope you can find a safe ride back. Most of the time, you get a ride back and you're fine, but the probability of disaster is not zero.

contingencies 14y ago
Interesting reply. I like your hitch-hiking metaphor, but I would extend it by saying "sometimes you decide life is better in the new place and never choose to return, or do so only sporadically". Certainly this mirrors people's travel in the physical realm more closely, and it is hard to deny that all forms of experience leave lasting impressions on us... While I certainly respect your experience, views and choices, I would highlight the fact that you are looking back upon experiences of the past and the human memory is a prickly beast. Further, wherever you make the statement that something is "not necessary", it's very much loaded. I think it's sometimes difficult to empathise with or second-guess other peoples' (like your former self's) life goals, experience, motivations-of-the-moment and general situation. Remember: children and many free thinking types, such as artists and hackers, can be largely motivated by curiosity, and that's a motivational asset that it's probably fair to say is rarer than hen's teeth in the adult population. Also, quite unlike some foreign cultures that celebrate serious schizophrenia (eg. India) and other more evident conditions, today in the west the dominant perspective on insanity seems to be largely defined by two factors. (1) An outgrowth of the historic western response (ie. 'mentally ill' people are 'treated' to return to what is assumed to be a preferable 'norm', or otherwise doped-up on antipsychotics that can prevent them from fully functioning)... the net message here is 'something is wrong with you', and 'the rest of society is right'. (2) Led by big pharma, aggressive Western-led drug marketing, and post-industrial-era 9-5 schedules (not to talk of related issues of mortgages, debt, lack of free time/exercise/social outlet/access to daylight) loads of people IMHO spuriously consider themselves to have depression, ADD, or some other 'illness' that in the past was either not present in society or fell in to the regular realm of human experience. Now I'm not dismissing that some people really have extreme mental situations that can cause social or personal problems, but I am saying that a lot of them could probably improve just as much if not more by moving, switching routines, eating differently, exercising more, or being allowed by their relevant authority figures to operate outside of the artificially imposed constraints of an Orwellian post-industrial-era clockbound mass-psychological consensual hallucination under high velocity, socially charged 24x7 multi-channel surveillance of themselves, by themselves/employer/school/state/cult/etc. (TLDR;) Let's just cut to the chase here: often, these people can start to realise the possibilities outside of their current mode of experience by taking a psychoactive drug, and it can do them real good, or at least provide food for thought. Necessary? Let each be their own judge.
- cnp 14y ago
  I highly agree with everything you said above. Well, well put.
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  I largely agree with what you are saying. When I say that psychedelics are "not necessary", I mean exactly that. I don't mean to say that they're evil, or even that they do more harm than good, because I don't think either is true. I think they're one path to something that can be attained through more difficult but, in the long term, safer means. I don't know where you get the idea that Indian culture celebrates severe schizophrenia. It doesn't. In fact, the contentions some people have that schizophrenia is an asset in other cultures is untrue. That belief comes from a time in which this illness was poorly understood and sloppily (read: too easily) diagnosed in other societies. In all cultures, actual schizophrenia is a disadvantage. However, having traits often classified as schizotypal can be an advantage in some cultures.
  - contingencies 14y ago
    > I don't know where you get the idea that Indian culture celebrates severe schizophrenia It's a near-direct quote from an Austrian mental health professional I encountered in Indonesia some months back. Also, it is generally supported by the rather broader minded approach to mystics and non-mainline-society people's physical presence on the street and within broader society that is immediately evident to the traveller in India, as well as in other developing world countries. > ... in other cultures ... in all cultures ... Big claims. I would wager that you have not spent much time living longer-term in cultures significantly distinct from the west.
    - michaelochurch 14y ago
      Mysticism != severe schizophrenia. One is a variety of spiritual practice pursued by healthy people seeking divine communion, enlightenment, or some other desirable but hard-to-attain spiritual state. The other is a problem, usually with the physical brain, that harms the ability to perceive reality and often causes immense suffering for the person who has it.

contingencies 14y ago

Interesting reply. I like your hitch-hiking metaphor, but I would extend it by saying "sometimes you decide life is better in the new place and never choose to return, or do so only sporadically". Certainly this mirrors people's travel in the physical realm more closely, and it is hard to deny that all forms of experience leave lasting impressions on us... While I certainly respect your experience, views and choices, I would highlight the fact that you are looking back upon experiences of the past and the human memory is a prickly beast. Further, wherever you make the statement that something is "not necessary", it's very much loaded. I think it's sometimes difficult to empathise with or second-guess other peoples' (like your former self's) life goals, experience, motivations-of-the-moment and general situation. Remember: children and many free thinking types, such as artists and hackers, can be largely motivated by curiosity, and that's a motivational asset that it's probably fair to say is rarer than hen's teeth in the adult population. Also, quite unlike some foreign cultures that celebrate serious schizophrenia (eg. India) and other more evident conditions, today in the west the dominant perspective on insanity seems to be largely defined by two factors. (1) An outgrowth of the historic western response (ie. 'mentally ill' people are 'treated' to return to what is assumed to be a preferable 'norm', or otherwise doped-up on antipsychotics that can prevent them from fully functioning)... the net message here is 'something is wrong with you', and 'the rest of society is right'. (2) Led by big pharma, aggressive Western-led drug marketing, and post-industrial-era 9-5 schedules (not to talk of related issues of mortgages, debt, lack of free time/exercise/social outlet/access to daylight) loads of people IMHO spuriously consider themselves to have depression, ADD, or some other 'illness' that in the past was either not present in society or fell in to the regular realm of human experience. Now I'm not dismissing that some people really have extreme mental situations that can cause social or personal problems, but I am saying that a lot of them could probably improve just as much if not more by moving, switching routines, eating differently, exercising more, or being allowed by their relevant authority figures to operate outside of the artificially imposed constraints of an Orwellian post-industrial-era clockbound mass-psychological consensual hallucination under high velocity, socially charged 24x7 multi-channel surveillance of themselves, by themselves/employer/school/state/cult/etc. (TLDR;) Let's just cut to the chase here: often, these people can start to realise the possibilities outside of their current mode of experience by taking a psychoactive drug, and it can do them real good, or at least provide food for thought. Necessary? Let each be their own judge.

cnp 14y ago
I highly agree with everything you said above. Well, well put.
michaelochurch 14y ago
I largely agree with what you are saying. When I say that psychedelics are "not necessary", I mean exactly that. I don't mean to say that they're evil, or even that they do more harm than good, because I don't think either is true. I think they're one path to something that can be attained through more difficult but, in the long term, safer means. I don't know where you get the idea that Indian culture celebrates severe schizophrenia. It doesn't. In fact, the contentions some people have that schizophrenia is an asset in other cultures is untrue. That belief comes from a time in which this illness was poorly understood and sloppily (read: too easily) diagnosed in other societies. In all cultures, actual schizophrenia is a disadvantage. However, having traits often classified as schizotypal can be an advantage in some cultures.
- contingencies 14y ago
  > I don't know where you get the idea that Indian culture celebrates severe schizophrenia It's a near-direct quote from an Austrian mental health professional I encountered in Indonesia some months back. Also, it is generally supported by the rather broader minded approach to mystics and non-mainline-society people's physical presence on the street and within broader society that is immediately evident to the traveller in India, as well as in other developing world countries. > ... in other cultures ... in all cultures ... Big claims. I would wager that you have not spent much time living longer-term in cultures significantly distinct from the west.
  - michaelochurch 14y ago
    Mysticism != severe schizophrenia. One is a variety of spiritual practice pursued by healthy people seeking divine communion, enlightenment, or some other desirable but hard-to-attain spiritual state. The other is a problem, usually with the physical brain, that harms the ability to perceive reality and often causes immense suffering for the person who has it.