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Evolution: 1. This is the greatest thing ever! Absolutely the path to enlightenment! 2. I had a crazy trip. I need some time to recover and to digest the

Evolution: 1. This is the greatest thing ever! Absolutely the path to enlightenment! 2. I had a crazy trip. I need some time to recover and to digest these thoughts. 3. This crap just gets in the way.

danabramov 14y ago
Can you please elaborate on (2) and (3)? I've had about 5 or 6 trips, and although some of them had bad moments (I get paranoid about unusual sensations with heart or breathing which are just exaggerated by the mind), I never regretted those trips. They weren't “eye-opening” or something, but the experience was very exciting, especially the nature, the music, the animals & the people part.
michaelochurch 14y ago
4. Drugs are boring. 5. ... but that's all there is. 6. Derelict insanity. (4 and 5 are direct quotes from people I know, one of whom went to #6. I've known people who use frequently and never burn, but there's a certain pattern of use that seems bent that way. The "all there is" mentality is a sign of someone on a dangerous path.)
- contingencies 14y ago
  Insanity is a highly subjective notion and in my view definitively anti-hacker. Why? Sanity is a mob-rule, society-dictated perspective, with no clear definition. Yes, 'sanity' in the eyes of society is useful within social systems. However, if one continues to 'function' (eat/sleep/do stuff interesting/be happy/not inflict pain and harm repetitively upon undeserving* others), then what's the problem? My point is that conceptually, we should all support alternative mental modes of engagement, regardless of society's perspective, as long as they are harmless. We should support differences, not crush them. In heterogeneity lies strength, and humans' great strength is their capacity of abstract thought and communication. Historically, we know that brilliant art and science derive largely from people who have been labelled insane by contemporary society. Consider this when choosing to deploy words like 'insane'. * Let's not get in to a greater discussion of law here.
  - akiselev 14y ago
    The problem though is that it is not harmless. Psychedelics blast your brain chemistry and can have extremely unpredictable consequences, especially with continued use. The effects can spread to not just your life but to the lives of those you care about. Personally, I think everyone should experience psychedelics when they're ready but to think that they are harmless is dangerous. The effects of drugs are like having an addiction: you won't know at all what it's like until you try it and once you do, there's no going back, for better or for worse
    - cnp 14y ago
      Agreed, but in a slightly different context: The mixture of psychedelics and many prescribed pharmaceuticals is a danger not many know about, particularly SSRI's. Due to this lack of information the dangers of a bad reaction --psychological or physiological-- are very real; in the case of such, it's always the illegal drug that is blamed, regardless of it's actual toxicity. In the case of Psilocybin or LSD or even DMT (the "nuclear bomb" of psychedelics) actual, measurable neurotoxicity is negligible if non-existant. (That being said, one can never be sure what one gets from the street, but in a controlled laboratory setting this is certainly the case.)
  - aneth4 14y ago
    Sanity does not mean following the rules or being normal, and the concept is not antihacker. Loss of sanity is generally a miserable sad state where the ability to judge reality to either one's own or other's satisfaction is compromised. Do not mistake insanity for interesting and creative. Heavy drug abuse can cause major permanent brain malfunction that results in a real compromise of sanity, and the result is not pretty. These HN drug threads are always filled with fearless commentary like this by young people who have never seen the before and after.
  - michaelochurch 14y ago
    By insanity I mean, "severe mental illness", which I don't think you understand (and you should be thankful for that). It seems to be extremely painful for the individual, and it's horrible for the people around that person. I don't classify people with occasional (but harmless) strange thoughts or paranormal beliefs as "insane". That's part of being human. Over a billion people believe that a virgin birth occurred over 2000 years ago. I personally think they're wrong, but I wouldn't call them insane or delusional. That belief, standing alone, is harmless. I have no problem with people who choose to explore alternate states of consciousness, whether through meditation, brainwave entrainment, sensory deprivation, or psychedelics. I don't think they're "insane" for doing so. Most people who use LSD or psilocybin come out of the experience with no lasting harm. Albert Hoffman, who discovered LSD, used it into his 80s with no health problems. (He lived to be 102.) However, if you spend significant time in a hipster enclave (e.g. Williamsburg) you see the long-term effects for people of certain mental patterns. The problem is that the people who are most attracted to frequent psychedelic use are also those, in my opinion, most vulnerable to the mental problems that this lifestyle can exacerbate. Cocaine and alcohol are extremely dangerous, but everyone knows that. I think the danger of psychedelics (which are biologically non-toxic) is that they can appeal to an experience-chasing mentality, and that they sometimes become entwined with a pattern of self-medication for an existing mental problem that would be better treated by a real psychiatrist. I've altered my consciousness a lot over the course of my life, and won't get into details (real name) but I haven't used any of these drugs for years. I don't even drink, except for an occasional beer with dinner. Drugs are not necessary. The way I think of it is that altered consciousness is like a wilderness. Meditation is like riding your bike into it, in the sense that if you're not in shape, you won't go very far but you'll be able to go back out. Keep riding, and you'll be able to go deeper over time. Psychedelics are more like hitch-hiking. You catch a ride, can go deep into the thick of it, and end up with no idea where you've landed. You hope you can find a safe ride back. Most of the time, you get a ride back and you're fine, but the probability of disaster is not zero.
gnosis 14y ago
Like a relationship with a person, a relationship with a substance might also not work out. This might indicate that: 1. This is the wrong person/substance for you. 2. You're not ready. Perhaps if you worked on yourself (through meditation, mindfulness, yoga, spiritual practice, therapy) you could get more out of future experiences. 3. You're abusing the relationship. You're not treating the person or substance with enough respect. All too commonly, psychedelics are used as "party drugs" rather than used constructively in a deliberate therapeutic, spiritual, religious, or shamanic context. This can lead to all sorts of problems. 4. You don't have the right guide or purpose. A therapist skilled in psychedelic therapy could be a great help, as can some serious introspection about exactly what it is you need to get from the experience. 5. Another problem that's all too common is that trippers fail to integrate what they learn on a trip in to the rest of their lives. This could lead to lessons forgotten and backsliding. 6. You might just need a break. Doing psychedelics too frequently is bordering on abuse.
- virtualwhys 14y ago
  "get more out of future experiences"? Where is the future and what is there to get?
  - gala8y 14y ago
    You caught him.
- jpdoctor 14y ago
  > Like a relationship with a person, a relationship with a substance might also not work out. Somewhere between stage 1 & 2.
- pharrington 14y ago
  Are you saying healthy psychedelic use must be in a "therapeutic, spiritual, religious, or shamanic" context? Yes, you do have to give these immensely powerful mind altering substances respect, the same way you have to go into a flight lesson with respect for the machine you're flying, but combining that respect with the primary goal of having a fun time seems perfectly valid to me. After all, no matter how profound or world shattering the experience may be, it's still just your own brain working on slightly modified parameters.
jrogers65 14y ago
That is devolution. Psychedelics are merely tools. Just as coffee is a means to an end when you need to stay awake and work, so psychedelics are a means to an end when you are trying to figure yourself and the world out on an emotional level. Just eating them and expecting benefit is fallacious. It's like buying a hammer and being surprised that you don't suddenly have a shed - you need to pick the tool up, apply it to the relevant things and be skilled in how you do so. Personally, I see psychedelics as a compliment to meditation. I would not recommend that anyone trip before they have a solid foundation. If your mind wanders easily, if you cannot look inside yourself, if you cannot sit in silence and be OK with it then you are not ready. Meditate regularly for a year first and then you will be able to reap some real benefit from tripping. Don't pick up a hammer before you know what a nail is. You might hit the wrong thing and end up with a hole in the wall.

danabramov 14y ago

Can you please elaborate on (2) and (3)? I've had about 5 or 6 trips, and although some of them had bad moments (I get paranoid about unusual sensations with heart or breathing which are just exaggerated by the mind), I never regretted those trips. They weren't “eye-opening” or something, but the experience was very exciting, especially the nature, the music, the animals & the people part.

michaelochurch 14y ago

4. Drugs are boring. 5. ... but that's all there is. 6. Derelict insanity. (4 and 5 are direct quotes from people I know, one of whom went to #6. I've known people who use frequently and never burn, but there's a certain pattern of use that seems bent that way. The "all there is" mentality is a sign of someone on a dangerous path.)

contingencies 14y ago
Insanity is a highly subjective notion and in my view definitively anti-hacker. Why? Sanity is a mob-rule, society-dictated perspective, with no clear definition. Yes, 'sanity' in the eyes of society is useful within social systems. However, if one continues to 'function' (eat/sleep/do stuff interesting/be happy/not inflict pain and harm repetitively upon undeserving* others), then what's the problem? My point is that conceptually, we should all support alternative mental modes of engagement, regardless of society's perspective, as long as they are harmless. We should support differences, not crush them. In heterogeneity lies strength, and humans' great strength is their capacity of abstract thought and communication. Historically, we know that brilliant art and science derive largely from people who have been labelled insane by contemporary society. Consider this when choosing to deploy words like 'insane'. * Let's not get in to a greater discussion of law here.
- akiselev 14y ago
  The problem though is that it is not harmless. Psychedelics blast your brain chemistry and can have extremely unpredictable consequences, especially with continued use. The effects can spread to not just your life but to the lives of those you care about. Personally, I think everyone should experience psychedelics when they're ready but to think that they are harmless is dangerous. The effects of drugs are like having an addiction: you won't know at all what it's like until you try it and once you do, there's no going back, for better or for worse
  - cnp 14y ago
    Agreed, but in a slightly different context: The mixture of psychedelics and many prescribed pharmaceuticals is a danger not many know about, particularly SSRI's. Due to this lack of information the dangers of a bad reaction --psychological or physiological-- are very real; in the case of such, it's always the illegal drug that is blamed, regardless of it's actual toxicity. In the case of Psilocybin or LSD or even DMT (the "nuclear bomb" of psychedelics) actual, measurable neurotoxicity is negligible if non-existant. (That being said, one can never be sure what one gets from the street, but in a controlled laboratory setting this is certainly the case.)
- aneth4 14y ago
  Sanity does not mean following the rules or being normal, and the concept is not antihacker. Loss of sanity is generally a miserable sad state where the ability to judge reality to either one's own or other's satisfaction is compromised. Do not mistake insanity for interesting and creative. Heavy drug abuse can cause major permanent brain malfunction that results in a real compromise of sanity, and the result is not pretty. These HN drug threads are always filled with fearless commentary like this by young people who have never seen the before and after.
- michaelochurch 14y ago
  By insanity I mean, "severe mental illness", which I don't think you understand (and you should be thankful for that). It seems to be extremely painful for the individual, and it's horrible for the people around that person. I don't classify people with occasional (but harmless) strange thoughts or paranormal beliefs as "insane". That's part of being human. Over a billion people believe that a virgin birth occurred over 2000 years ago. I personally think they're wrong, but I wouldn't call them insane or delusional. That belief, standing alone, is harmless. I have no problem with people who choose to explore alternate states of consciousness, whether through meditation, brainwave entrainment, sensory deprivation, or psychedelics. I don't think they're "insane" for doing so. Most people who use LSD or psilocybin come out of the experience with no lasting harm. Albert Hoffman, who discovered LSD, used it into his 80s with no health problems. (He lived to be 102.) However, if you spend significant time in a hipster enclave (e.g. Williamsburg) you see the long-term effects for people of certain mental patterns. The problem is that the people who are most attracted to frequent psychedelic use are also those, in my opinion, most vulnerable to the mental problems that this lifestyle can exacerbate. Cocaine and alcohol are extremely dangerous, but everyone knows that. I think the danger of psychedelics (which are biologically non-toxic) is that they can appeal to an experience-chasing mentality, and that they sometimes become entwined with a pattern of self-medication for an existing mental problem that would be better treated by a real psychiatrist. I've altered my consciousness a lot over the course of my life, and won't get into details (real name) but I haven't used any of these drugs for years. I don't even drink, except for an occasional beer with dinner. Drugs are not necessary. The way I think of it is that altered consciousness is like a wilderness. Meditation is like riding your bike into it, in the sense that if you're not in shape, you won't go very far but you'll be able to go back out. Keep riding, and you'll be able to go deeper over time. Psychedelics are more like hitch-hiking. You catch a ride, can go deep into the thick of it, and end up with no idea where you've landed. You hope you can find a safe ride back. Most of the time, you get a ride back and you're fine, but the probability of disaster is not zero.

gnosis 14y ago

Like a relationship with a person, a relationship with a substance might also not work out. This might indicate that: 1. This is the wrong person/substance for you. 2. You're not ready. Perhaps if you worked on yourself (through meditation, mindfulness, yoga, spiritual practice, therapy) you could get more out of future experiences. 3. You're abusing the relationship. You're not treating the person or substance with enough respect. All too commonly, psychedelics are used as "party drugs" rather than used constructively in a deliberate therapeutic, spiritual, religious, or shamanic context. This can lead to all sorts of problems. 4. You don't have the right guide or purpose. A therapist skilled in psychedelic therapy could be a great help, as can some serious introspection about exactly what it is you need to get from the experience. 5. Another problem that's all too common is that trippers fail to integrate what they learn on a trip in to the rest of their lives. This could lead to lessons forgotten and backsliding. 6. You might just need a break. Doing psychedelics too frequently is bordering on abuse.

virtualwhys 14y ago
"get more out of future experiences"? Where is the future and what is there to get?
- gala8y 14y ago
  You caught him.
jpdoctor 14y ago
> Like a relationship with a person, a relationship with a substance might also not work out. Somewhere between stage 1 & 2.
pharrington 14y ago
Are you saying healthy psychedelic use must be in a "therapeutic, spiritual, religious, or shamanic" context? Yes, you do have to give these immensely powerful mind altering substances respect, the same way you have to go into a flight lesson with respect for the machine you're flying, but combining that respect with the primary goal of having a fun time seems perfectly valid to me. After all, no matter how profound or world shattering the experience may be, it's still just your own brain working on slightly modified parameters.

jrogers65 14y ago

That is devolution. Psychedelics are merely tools. Just as coffee is a means to an end when you need to stay awake and work, so psychedelics are a means to an end when you are trying to figure yourself and the world out on an emotional level. Just eating them and expecting benefit is fallacious. It's like buying a hammer and being surprised that you don't suddenly have a shed - you need to pick the tool up, apply it to the relevant things and be skilled in how you do so. Personally, I see psychedelics as a compliment to meditation. I would not recommend that anyone trip before they have a solid foundation. If your mind wanders easily, if you cannot look inside yourself, if you cannot sit in silence and be OK with it then you are not ready. Meditate regularly for a year first and then you will be able to reap some real benefit from tripping. Don't pick up a hammer before you know what a nail is. You might hit the wrong thing and end up with a hole in the wall.