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First, "outdated IT" is only part of the problem. The courts have had decades to upgrade their systems, and they have consistently refused for one reason or ano

First, "outdated IT" is only part of the problem. The courts have had decades to upgrade their systems, and they have consistently refused for one reason or another. Upgrades are not free, but the cost justifications have been blown so far out of proportion that it's simply not possible for them to be genuinely concerned about cost. There is real reluctance to change on the part of powerful individuals. Second, whether or not Lexis and West are explicitly colluding with the courts is not really the issue. The fact of the matter is that in many, many, many jurisdictions, Lexis and West are THE ONLY WAY to access public information. Take the Code of Maryland as an example... http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/mdcode/ http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/mdcode/ ...or the California Supreme Court... http://www.lexisnexis.com/clients/CACourts/ http://www.lexisnexis.com/clients/CACourts/ On both of these official government pages, one must agree to terms and conditions of Lexis Nexis in order to access public information for which there is no other official source. One of those conditions (if I remember correctly) is that I may not access what they might consider to be too much public information. This is outrageous. Whether or not legal contracts or illegal collusion resulted in this setup is totally irrelevant. What matters is that this information's availability should not be subject to anyone's approval. And what I see is Lexis and West acting precisely as "a for-profit gateway to public domain documents."

rayiner 14y ago
Your outrage is misplaced as well as being paranoid and ridiculous. This is the California Supreme Court's opinions page: http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions.htm http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions.htm Lexis takes the slip opinions, edits and indexes them, and hosts them (1850 - Present, which means they went back and digitized old opinions), and lets you access them free of charge with an explicit disclaimer of any copyright. The court itself separately publishes the unedited slip opinions in both PDF and DOC format as they are rendered. What more do you want? Are you going to pay for the court to duplicate Lexis's effort so you don't have to agree to the terms and conditions? There is a difference between freely releasing the information and undertaking the expenditure to aggregate and collect the information then making it available for no charge. Who are these "powerful individuals" and what exactly are they keeping from you? Upgrading the court systems are not as easy as you make them out to be. We're not talking about one system here. We're talking about hundreds of separate systems, the result of the independent administration of hundreds of decentralized state and federal courts. It's a massive undertaking, meanwhile the court system is perpetually underfunded. NB: As for the Maryland code, Lexis is not the only source. The University of Maryland provides links to several sources: http://lib.guides.umd.edu/content.php?pid=131120&sid=1126003 http://lib.guides.umd.edu/content.php?pid=131120&sid=112.... E.g. http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmStatutes.aspx?pid=statpage&tab=subject5 http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmStatutes.aspx?pid=statp.... They're just PDFs: http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/Pubs/LegisLegal/2012rs-laws-maryland-Vol-001.pdf http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/Pubs/LegisLegal/2012rs-laws-maryl....
- thinkcomp 14y ago
  Allow me to continue in my paranoid ridiculousness then. :) 1. The California link you provided points to the California link I provided. 2. Yes, I want my tax dollars to pay for the court to be able to host, edit and index its own opinions without an intermediary. 3. "Powerful individuals" are the judges who run the Administrative Office of the Courts, and by extension, PACER. I would be surprised to hear anyone dispute that they are in a position of power. 4. I know roughly what it would take to upgrade PACER. I've spent the past year designing and implementing a similar system. For PACER, the "hundreds of systems" you reference are similar enough that they could and should be consolidated into one. State courts are a separate issue and not the focus of this particular initiative since most states that I know of allow costless access to court documents. 5. Lexis is the only OFFICIAL source of the Code of Maryland. (Note that I said above "for which there is no other official source.")
  - rayiner 14y ago
    > 1. The California link you provided points to the California link I provided. Yes, but it also points to the unedited slip opinions, which you conveniently left out. > 2. Yes, I want my tax dollars to pay for the court to be able to host, edit and index its own opinions without an intermediary. Then lobby for that. Don't indulge in conspiracy theories about how Lexis/West are blocking access to public documents. > 3. "Powerful individuals" are the judges who run the Administrative Office of the Courts, and by extension, PACER. I would be surprised to hear anyone dispute that they are in a position of power. Oh yes, the Administrative Office of the Courts, that powerful agency with a massive $50 million budget. :-/ If there is a less powerful agency in the federal government it doesn't come to mind. > 4. I know roughly what it would take to upgrade PACER. I've spent the past year designing and implementing a similar system. For PACER, the "hundreds of systems" you reference are similar enough that they could and should be consolidated into one. Do you know how many engineers have said to themselves: "I could totally replace this big complex mission-critical system in X amount of time with Y amount of money?" Where X and Y turned out to be ridiculous overoptimistic underestimates? > 5. Lexis is the only OFFICIAL source of the Code of Maryland. (Note that I said above "for which there is no other official source.") What do you mean by "official"? If you mean "authoritative" then the Code is not authoritative. The authoritative source of the law are the session laws. "While the “Laws of Maryland” (Session Laws) constitute the official laws of the State, the Code is accepted as “evidence” of the law in all State courts and by all public offices and officials. However, in the event of a conflict between the Code and the Session Laws, the Session Laws prevail." (http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmStatutes.aspx?pid=statpage&tab=subject5 http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmStatutes.aspx?pid=statp...).

rayiner 14y ago

Your outrage is misplaced as well as being paranoid and ridiculous. This is the California Supreme Court's opinions page: http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions.htm http://www.courts.ca.gov/opinions.htm Lexis takes the slip opinions, edits and indexes them, and hosts them (1850 - Present, which means they went back and digitized old opinions), and lets you access them free of charge with an explicit disclaimer of any copyright. The court itself separately publishes the unedited slip opinions in both PDF and DOC format as they are rendered. What more do you want? Are you going to pay for the court to duplicate Lexis's effort so you don't have to agree to the terms and conditions? There is a difference between freely releasing the information and undertaking the expenditure to aggregate and collect the information then making it available for no charge. Who are these "powerful individuals" and what exactly are they keeping from you? Upgrading the court systems are not as easy as you make them out to be. We're not talking about one system here. We're talking about hundreds of separate systems, the result of the independent administration of hundreds of decentralized state and federal courts. It's a massive undertaking, meanwhile the court system is perpetually underfunded. NB: As for the Maryland code, Lexis is not the only source. The University of Maryland provides links to several sources: http://lib.guides.umd.edu/content.php?pid=131120&sid=1126003 http://lib.guides.umd.edu/content.php?pid=131120&sid=112.... E.g. http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmStatutes.aspx?pid=statpage&tab=subject5 http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmStatutes.aspx?pid=statp.... They're just PDFs: http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/Pubs/LegisLegal/2012rs-laws-maryland-Vol-001.pdf http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/Pubs/LegisLegal/2012rs-laws-maryl....

thinkcomp 14y ago
Allow me to continue in my paranoid ridiculousness then. :) 1. The California link you provided points to the California link I provided. 2. Yes, I want my tax dollars to pay for the court to be able to host, edit and index its own opinions without an intermediary. 3. "Powerful individuals" are the judges who run the Administrative Office of the Courts, and by extension, PACER. I would be surprised to hear anyone dispute that they are in a position of power. 4. I know roughly what it would take to upgrade PACER. I've spent the past year designing and implementing a similar system. For PACER, the "hundreds of systems" you reference are similar enough that they could and should be consolidated into one. State courts are a separate issue and not the focus of this particular initiative since most states that I know of allow costless access to court documents. 5. Lexis is the only OFFICIAL source of the Code of Maryland. (Note that I said above "for which there is no other official source.")
- rayiner 14y ago
  > 1. The California link you provided points to the California link I provided. Yes, but it also points to the unedited slip opinions, which you conveniently left out. > 2. Yes, I want my tax dollars to pay for the court to be able to host, edit and index its own opinions without an intermediary. Then lobby for that. Don't indulge in conspiracy theories about how Lexis/West are blocking access to public documents. > 3. "Powerful individuals" are the judges who run the Administrative Office of the Courts, and by extension, PACER. I would be surprised to hear anyone dispute that they are in a position of power. Oh yes, the Administrative Office of the Courts, that powerful agency with a massive $50 million budget. :-/ If there is a less powerful agency in the federal government it doesn't come to mind. > 4. I know roughly what it would take to upgrade PACER. I've spent the past year designing and implementing a similar system. For PACER, the "hundreds of systems" you reference are similar enough that they could and should be consolidated into one. Do you know how many engineers have said to themselves: "I could totally replace this big complex mission-critical system in X amount of time with Y amount of money?" Where X and Y turned out to be ridiculous overoptimistic underestimates? > 5. Lexis is the only OFFICIAL source of the Code of Maryland. (Note that I said above "for which there is no other official source.") What do you mean by "official"? If you mean "authoritative" then the Code is not authoritative. The authoritative source of the law are the session laws. "While the “Laws of Maryland” (Session Laws) constitute the official laws of the State, the Code is accepted as “evidence” of the law in all State courts and by all public offices and officials. However, in the event of a conflict between the Code and the Session Laws, the Session Laws prevail." (http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmStatutes.aspx?pid=statpage&tab=subject5 http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmStatutes.aspx?pid=statp...).