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This sums up everything I find wrong about the Windows philosophy. Software whining for updates. Unwanted background programs. Installers that want to install m

This sums up everything I find wrong about the Windows philosophy. Software whining for updates. Unwanted background programs. Installers that want to install more than you ask for. Usage of the phrase "We recommend" where recommend means "we get money if you". I've never seen any of those terrible anti-user behaviours in a Linux package manager, or makefile. I would be fine with an actual security fix being downloaded and installed silently (without any other payload of course).

kevingadd 14y ago
This has nothing to do with Windows specifically and everything to do with software developers prioritizing profit over all else. What does the 'Windows Philosophy' have to do with the decisions Oracle makes about Java anyway? Do you really think Java follows the 'Windows Philosophy'?
- steveklabnik 14y ago
  > This has nothing to do with Windows specifically and everything to do with software developers prioritizing profit over all else. Sounds like Windows to me.
- sc0rb 14y ago
  I have a feeling he means bundling crap with installers. This has been done for a long time on Windows and not so much on Linux or OSX.
  - bmj 14y ago
    Likely because Windows has enjoyed a rather massive installation base, particularly among folks who are not terribly knowledgeable. I'm sure as other platforms become more dominant, we'll see similar shenanigans.
    - bad_user 14y ago
      Having a user base of folks that aren't very knowledgeable is no excuse for abuse. Also, I do not think other platforms can be as plagued as Windows is, because it's a matter of culture and user expectations being driven by that culture. The size of the user base has nothing to do with it. On Windows users wishing to get anything done resort to installing some crap, even for basic things like uncompressing an archive, watching a movie, listen to some MP3 or viewing a PDF or an Office document. Things got better with open-source software that was ported to Windows, but considering that Windows is the dominant operating system, the ecosystem is actually kind of lame. If you want quality software, the few exceptions are some open-source apps and some products being sold by some big publishers and that's it. I have a theory that this is because Microsoft itself encouraged piracy and bundling of crapware, while discouraging indie developers, communities and open-source.
  - donniezazen 14y ago
    I have never seen any other package bundled with the one you want to install in Linux.
    - TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
      That's because it's probably made by volunteers and they're not trying to make a profit off you.
      - donniezazen 14y ago
        Also, I think it is frowned upon in open source world.
- revscat 14y ago
  > This has nothing to do with Windows specifically and everything to do with software developers prioritizing profit over all else. I don't know about philosophies, but Windows is the only OS I have used which suffers from these problems. I have never experienced this on OS X or Linux. I don't particularly care why, just that it happens.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - bunderbunder 14y ago
    I strongly suspect that the fact that this doesn't happen as often on OS X and Linux has very little to do with anything intrinsic to those two operating systems. It's just that they're less fertile ground for this sort of thing. For one, each having fewer users should not be ignored. 90% fewer users means 90% less potential profit. That's a big number even when you aren't relying on a revenue generation model such as ads. But not just that - also because the average user on both platforms (particularly Linux) is more computer-literate, and therefore better-capable of defending against this sort of thing. And on the OS X side, remember that for a long time the Java run-time was distributed by Apple. The agreement to start having it be distributed by Oracle might well have included a "no crapware" provision. On the Linux side, well, that's where all their enterprise customers live nowadays. They really do not want to piss off their enterprise customers like that.
    - revscat 14y ago
      Again, I do not care "why", just that it happens. Crapware is more of a Windows thing. This is one of (many) reasons I avoid it.
      - ars 14y ago
        You should care, because it could change. And if you know why it happened in the first place, you'll know when it could change.
talmand 14y ago
I fail to understand how that's the Windows philosophy. I've used Windows almost exclusively since I've started using computers and I don't recall that being the norm for quite some time. Even today I would say it's not really the norm simply because most people will not run into this on a regular basis. I would say that's the philosophy of business in general, especially considering the article is about Oracle's bad behavior. They target Windows simply because of sheer numbers which would possibly give them a good return on investment. The main reason you don't see that behavior on Linux, yet, is that it's not worth the time for these businesses. If they ever change their mind I guarantee that will be the day you'll start to see this type of thing.
- sixbrx 14y ago
  > The main reason you don't see that behavior on Linux, > yet, is that it's not worth the time for these businesses I think it's rather that almost all Linux software is either open source or installed through a package manager (usually both). Open source developers would fork and remove any such behavior if the program is at all worth dealing with. While package managers would not be likely to include such annoying software to begin with.
  - TeMPOraL 14y ago
    If ever Linux gets a similar userbase as Windows, I guarantee you there will be tons of crapware for it as well. Open source developers can do exactly nothing if users will want to download something from the Web and crapware makers make it extra easy and convenient to them. And if you say that this won't happen, because software will still be installed through a package manager than well... maybe that's (one of the reasons) why Linux doesn't have a similar non-tech-savvy userbase as Windows.
    - TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
      Yep, and already we have Steam, for example. While an excellent gaming platform, is also Adware by default, and displays popups with special offers and new games on sale.
Silhouette 14y ago
I've never seen any of those terrible anti-user behaviours in a Linux package manager, or makefile. No, on Linux the Java plug-ins simply don't work at all most of the time. (I work on a project using a Java applet, and frequently get negative feedback from colleagues running Linux about this issue.)
- laumars 14y ago
  Oracle/Sun's JRE Works perfectly fine in Linux. Pretty much always has done. I bet the vast majority of those users having problems are running OpenJRE/JDK, which is known to have issues with some Java applications (though the issues are slowly being resolved; bit by bit). Sadly, because of licencing issues, most distros only support the open run times in their main repos, but adding Oracle JRE isn't much trouble.
spyder 14y ago
Android too is catching up with the apps spamming the notification bar.
TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
You're comparing a walled garden software source (OK not exactly, but Linux package managers are practically curated App Stores by default), with installing software from all over the Internet. Now, sure, that used to be the only way to get software on Windows, but there is now a valid alternative for both Modern-style UI and Desktop apps: Windows Store

kevingadd 14y ago

This has nothing to do with Windows specifically and everything to do with software developers prioritizing profit over all else. What does the 'Windows Philosophy' have to do with the decisions Oracle makes about Java anyway? Do you really think Java follows the 'Windows Philosophy'?

steveklabnik 14y ago
> This has nothing to do with Windows specifically and everything to do with software developers prioritizing profit over all else. Sounds like Windows to me.
sc0rb 14y ago
I have a feeling he means bundling crap with installers. This has been done for a long time on Windows and not so much on Linux or OSX.
- bmj 14y ago
  Likely because Windows has enjoyed a rather massive installation base, particularly among folks who are not terribly knowledgeable. I'm sure as other platforms become more dominant, we'll see similar shenanigans.
  - bad_user 14y ago
    Having a user base of folks that aren't very knowledgeable is no excuse for abuse. Also, I do not think other platforms can be as plagued as Windows is, because it's a matter of culture and user expectations being driven by that culture. The size of the user base has nothing to do with it. On Windows users wishing to get anything done resort to installing some crap, even for basic things like uncompressing an archive, watching a movie, listen to some MP3 or viewing a PDF or an Office document. Things got better with open-source software that was ported to Windows, but considering that Windows is the dominant operating system, the ecosystem is actually kind of lame. If you want quality software, the few exceptions are some open-source apps and some products being sold by some big publishers and that's it. I have a theory that this is because Microsoft itself encouraged piracy and bundling of crapware, while discouraging indie developers, communities and open-source.
- donniezazen 14y ago
  I have never seen any other package bundled with the one you want to install in Linux.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
    That's because it's probably made by volunteers and they're not trying to make a profit off you.
    - donniezazen 14y ago
      Also, I think it is frowned upon in open source world.
revscat 14y ago
> This has nothing to do with Windows specifically and everything to do with software developers prioritizing profit over all else. I don't know about philosophies, but Windows is the only OS I have used which suffers from these problems. I have never experienced this on OS X or Linux. I don't particularly care why, just that it happens.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- bunderbunder 14y ago
  I strongly suspect that the fact that this doesn't happen as often on OS X and Linux has very little to do with anything intrinsic to those two operating systems. It's just that they're less fertile ground for this sort of thing. For one, each having fewer users should not be ignored. 90% fewer users means 90% less potential profit. That's a big number even when you aren't relying on a revenue generation model such as ads. But not just that - also because the average user on both platforms (particularly Linux) is more computer-literate, and therefore better-capable of defending against this sort of thing. And on the OS X side, remember that for a long time the Java run-time was distributed by Apple. The agreement to start having it be distributed by Oracle might well have included a "no crapware" provision. On the Linux side, well, that's where all their enterprise customers live nowadays. They really do not want to piss off their enterprise customers like that.
  - revscat 14y ago
    Again, I do not care "why", just that it happens. Crapware is more of a Windows thing. This is one of (many) reasons I avoid it.
    - ars 14y ago
      You should care, because it could change. And if you know why it happened in the first place, you'll know when it could change.

talmand 14y ago

I fail to understand how that's the Windows philosophy. I've used Windows almost exclusively since I've started using computers and I don't recall that being the norm for quite some time. Even today I would say it's not really the norm simply because most people will not run into this on a regular basis. I would say that's the philosophy of business in general, especially considering the article is about Oracle's bad behavior. They target Windows simply because of sheer numbers which would possibly give them a good return on investment. The main reason you don't see that behavior on Linux, yet, is that it's not worth the time for these businesses. If they ever change their mind I guarantee that will be the day you'll start to see this type of thing.

sixbrx 14y ago
> The main reason you don't see that behavior on Linux, > yet, is that it's not worth the time for these businesses I think it's rather that almost all Linux software is either open source or installed through a package manager (usually both). Open source developers would fork and remove any such behavior if the program is at all worth dealing with. While package managers would not be likely to include such annoying software to begin with.
- TeMPOraL 14y ago
  If ever Linux gets a similar userbase as Windows, I guarantee you there will be tons of crapware for it as well. Open source developers can do exactly nothing if users will want to download something from the Web and crapware makers make it extra easy and convenient to them. And if you say that this won't happen, because software will still be installed through a package manager than well... maybe that's (one of the reasons) why Linux doesn't have a similar non-tech-savvy userbase as Windows.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
    Yep, and already we have Steam, for example. While an excellent gaming platform, is also Adware by default, and displays popups with special offers and new games on sale.

Silhouette 14y ago

I've never seen any of those terrible anti-user behaviours in a Linux package manager, or makefile. No, on Linux the Java plug-ins simply don't work at all most of the time. (I work on a project using a Java applet, and frequently get negative feedback from colleagues running Linux about this issue.)

laumars 14y ago
Oracle/Sun's JRE Works perfectly fine in Linux. Pretty much always has done. I bet the vast majority of those users having problems are running OpenJRE/JDK, which is known to have issues with some Java applications (though the issues are slowly being resolved; bit by bit). Sadly, because of licencing issues, most distros only support the open run times in their main repos, but adding Oracle JRE isn't much trouble.

spyder 14y ago

Android too is catching up with the apps spamming the notification bar.

TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago

You're comparing a walled garden software source (OK not exactly, but Linux package managers are practically curated App Stores by default), with installing software from all over the Internet. Now, sure, that used to be the only way to get software on Windows, but there is now a valid alternative for both Modern-style UI and Desktop apps: Windows Store