5 ms·

Probably throws chairs at them... To be serious, this is normal in most corporates. It starts when you let the MBA* with the personality disorder in, you're fu

by meaty 14y ago

Probably throws chairs at them... To be serious, this is normal in most corporates. It starts when you let the MBA* with the personality disorder in, you're fucked. I've watched three companies fall at the hands of such people. * This is not true of all MBAs, but I seem to see a trend where there are more borderline psychopaths.

panacea 14y ago
What's in a title? Imagine if you could come out of a computer science or design course with "Master of...[domain]" appended to your name. The grandiouse title giving should probably be reigned in.
- NickPollard 14y ago
  You don't need to imagine; just look at any MSc or MEng.
- meaty 14y ago
  The MBA seems to attract a certain type of person, which is my point. I'm an MEng myself but I don't see that type of person around the whole engineering scene.
- peteretep 14y ago
  I'm on my way to being a MASTER OF SCIENCE for my computer degree... Doctor Strange better look out...
bhousel 14y ago
Steve Ballmer does not have an MBA.
- meaty 14y ago
  I should have made the more generic point "MBA types" (high business, executives etc). Not specifically MBAs.
  - bhousel 14y ago
    No.
  - PeterisP 14y ago
    The vast majority of MBA's are not executives, but work in either mid-management or finance-specialist jobs (accounting, audit, financing, etc). Are you sure that MBA-typical people are really what you call "MBA types" ? In mass media you'd be seeing only a small, very nonrepresentative, very biased sample of them.
    - meaty 14y ago
      Yes entirely. I work in the financial sector and deal with ALL levels of management that you mention above. In fact, I regularly deal with an organisation that has 2500 managerial staff. I've been on the end of management politics for 20 years as well so I know how it works. I've watched climbers and sinkers and the climbers are ruthless and have a statistically higher quantity of MBAs between them (it's amazing what you can suck out of linkedin).
- huxley 14y ago
  To be exact, he dropped out of the Stanford Graduate School of Business MBA program to join Microsoft.
- rbanffy 14y ago
  But I wouldn't rule the personality disorder out. Neither for him, nor his predecessor.
blisterpeanuts 14y ago
MBA programs attract borderline personalities? That's a new one. In reality, the MBA provides managers with a framework to conduct business in a methodical manner. It gives them a process to use, so that their personalities don't have to be such a large factor. I've never done an MBA but I know many who have; it's mostly case studies and common sense. If you ONLY have an MBA and no other particular expertise, then yes, you are just another talking head. But if you are an ME or EE or SWE with an MBA then you have a formidable set of skills to draw on.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- snogglethorpe 14y ago
  > MBA programs attract borderline personalities? > In reality, the MBA provides managers with a framework to conduct business in a methodical manner Those two things are not mutually exclusive, of course...
- ryanmolden 14y ago
  People that rank on the Hare scale of psycopathy are over-represented (relative to prevalence in broader society) in corporate C-suites, controlling for age, gender, race, etc...[0] I am not sure what the representation of MBAs is in the C-suite but I assume it is also fairly high. I do not believe the book examines the representation amongst MBAs specifically, though. [0] http://www.amazon.com/Snakes-Suits-When-Psychopaths-Work/dp/0061147893 http://www.amazon.com/Snakes-Suits-When-Psychopaths-Work/dp/...
  - PeterisP 14y ago
    There are several orders of magnitude less people in C-suite positions than in MBA programs. If most needles are found in haystacks, it doesn't mean that haystacks consist mostly of needles.
    - dpark 14y ago
      "Over-representation" is also pretty vague and the leap to anything like "common" is completely unjustified. A paper co-authored by Hare (referenced below) cites a prevalence of 1.2% for "potential psychopathy" (couldn't find a number for strong psychopathy). So if 2% of C-level execs were exhibited potential psychopathy, then psychopathy would be way over-represented, but still quite uncommon. http://www.hare.org/references/NeumannandHareJCCP2008.pdf http://www.hare.org/references/NeumannandHareJCCP2008.pdf Just for completeness, another study found the prevalence even lower, at 6%. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160252709000028 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160252709...
dpark 14y ago
> This is not true of all MBAs, but I seem to see a trend where there are more borderline psychopaths. You "seem to see a trend"? On what is this observation based? On your detailed survey of the published clinical literature? Maybe on all the research you collated while assisting in the latest revision of the DSM? Perhaps on the personality assessments you've performed as part of a dissertation for your doctorate in psychology? Or perhaps on nothing, and instead you are in no way qualified to make this sort of claim.
- meaty 14y ago
  I'm not qualified to make that claim at all. However, there is plenty of literature that backs up my claims by people who do have the qualifications. Someone actually posted a good reference in another reply: http://www.amazon.com/Snakes-Suits-When-Psychopaths-Work/dp/0061147893 http://www.amazon.com/Snakes-Suits-When-Psychopaths-Work/dp/...
  - dpark 14y ago
    Plenty of literature and the best example is a trade paperback? How about some journalistic publications? While I do not doubt that Hare and Babiak have the credentials, the linked book seems rather fluffy. It specifically does not discuss any actual psychopaths, merely fictional ones, nor does it seem to quantify any actual increase in the number of psychopaths in the business world. Rather, it seems instead to discuss how psychopaths can thrive in the business world, which is a very different question from how many. (I have not read the book, though, merely the previews and excerpts that I could find.) And of course, let us not forget that an increase (if there is one) in psychopaths in business is not the same as psychopathy being "normal in most corporates". Nor should we pretend that all business people are MBAs or that all MBAs are even working in the business world. In short, you've got little to no evidence for an increase in psychopathy, even less evidence for the jump to it being common, and basically no reason for the link to MBAs.

by meaty 14y ago

panacea 14y ago

What's in a title? Imagine if you could come out of a computer science or design course with "Master of...[domain]" appended to your name. The grandiouse title giving should probably be reigned in.

NickPollard 14y ago
You don't need to imagine; just look at any MSc or MEng.
meaty 14y ago
The MBA seems to attract a certain type of person, which is my point. I'm an MEng myself but I don't see that type of person around the whole engineering scene.
peteretep 14y ago
I'm on my way to being a MASTER OF SCIENCE for my computer degree... Doctor Strange better look out...

bhousel 14y ago

Steve Ballmer does not have an MBA.

meaty 14y ago
I should have made the more generic point "MBA types" (high business, executives etc). Not specifically MBAs.
- bhousel 14y ago
  No.
- PeterisP 14y ago
  The vast majority of MBA's are not executives, but work in either mid-management or finance-specialist jobs (accounting, audit, financing, etc). Are you sure that MBA-typical people are really what you call "MBA types" ? In mass media you'd be seeing only a small, very nonrepresentative, very biased sample of them.
  - meaty 14y ago
    Yes entirely. I work in the financial sector and deal with ALL levels of management that you mention above. In fact, I regularly deal with an organisation that has 2500 managerial staff. I've been on the end of management politics for 20 years as well so I know how it works. I've watched climbers and sinkers and the climbers are ruthless and have a statistically higher quantity of MBAs between them (it's amazing what you can suck out of linkedin).
huxley 14y ago
To be exact, he dropped out of the Stanford Graduate School of Business MBA program to join Microsoft.
rbanffy 14y ago
But I wouldn't rule the personality disorder out. Neither for him, nor his predecessor.

blisterpeanuts 14y ago

MBA programs attract borderline personalities? That's a new one. In reality, the MBA provides managers with a framework to conduct business in a methodical manner. It gives them a process to use, so that their personalities don't have to be such a large factor. I've never done an MBA but I know many who have; it's mostly case studies and common sense. If you ONLY have an MBA and no other particular expertise, then yes, you are just another talking head. But if you are an ME or EE or SWE with an MBA then you have a formidable set of skills to draw on.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
snogglethorpe 14y ago
> MBA programs attract borderline personalities? > In reality, the MBA provides managers with a framework to conduct business in a methodical manner Those two things are not mutually exclusive, of course...
ryanmolden 14y ago
People that rank on the Hare scale of psycopathy are over-represented (relative to prevalence in broader society) in corporate C-suites, controlling for age, gender, race, etc...[0] I am not sure what the representation of MBAs is in the C-suite but I assume it is also fairly high. I do not believe the book examines the representation amongst MBAs specifically, though. [0] http://www.amazon.com/Snakes-Suits-When-Psychopaths-Work/dp/0061147893 http://www.amazon.com/Snakes-Suits-When-Psychopaths-Work/dp/...
- PeterisP 14y ago
  There are several orders of magnitude less people in C-suite positions than in MBA programs. If most needles are found in haystacks, it doesn't mean that haystacks consist mostly of needles.
  - dpark 14y ago
    "Over-representation" is also pretty vague and the leap to anything like "common" is completely unjustified. A paper co-authored by Hare (referenced below) cites a prevalence of 1.2% for "potential psychopathy" (couldn't find a number for strong psychopathy). So if 2% of C-level execs were exhibited potential psychopathy, then psychopathy would be way over-represented, but still quite uncommon. http://www.hare.org/references/NeumannandHareJCCP2008.pdf http://www.hare.org/references/NeumannandHareJCCP2008.pdf Just for completeness, another study found the prevalence even lower, at 6%. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160252709000028 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160252709...

dpark 14y ago

> This is not true of all MBAs, but I seem to see a trend where there are more borderline psychopaths. You "seem to see a trend"? On what is this observation based? On your detailed survey of the published clinical literature? Maybe on all the research you collated while assisting in the latest revision of the DSM? Perhaps on the personality assessments you've performed as part of a dissertation for your doctorate in psychology? Or perhaps on nothing, and instead you are in no way qualified to make this sort of claim.

meaty 14y ago
I'm not qualified to make that claim at all. However, there is plenty of literature that backs up my claims by people who do have the qualifications. Someone actually posted a good reference in another reply: http://www.amazon.com/Snakes-Suits-When-Psychopaths-Work/dp/0061147893 http://www.amazon.com/Snakes-Suits-When-Psychopaths-Work/dp/...
- dpark 14y ago
  Plenty of literature and the best example is a trade paperback? How about some journalistic publications? While I do not doubt that Hare and Babiak have the credentials, the linked book seems rather fluffy. It specifically does not discuss any actual psychopaths, merely fictional ones, nor does it seem to quantify any actual increase in the number of psychopaths in the business world. Rather, it seems instead to discuss how psychopaths can thrive in the business world, which is a very different question from how many. (I have not read the book, though, merely the previews and excerpts that I could find.) And of course, let us not forget that an increase (if there is one) in psychopaths in business is not the same as psychopathy being "normal in most corporates". Nor should we pretend that all business people are MBAs or that all MBAs are even working in the business world. In short, you've got little to no evidence for an increase in psychopathy, even less evidence for the jump to it being common, and basically no reason for the link to MBAs.