10 ms·

Anti-Apple Anger

56 points by mh_ 14y ago

jmduke 14y ago
A lot of the elitism (or at least what I consider elitism) from Gruber, Arment, Siegler et all is incredibly off-putting to me -- and I own a MacBook Air, iPad, and iPhone. That being said, I think this is an incredibly well-reasoned and well-crafted explanation of the massive chasm between Apple 'fanboys' and Apple 'haters' -- and explains to me why, as a current zealot of the iOS ecosystem, I nonetheless find so much Apple commentary off-putting. Really great job by Marco and makes me much more inclined to subscribe to the Magazine. Nothing's perfect for everyone. Some things are perfect for some people.
- Apocryphon 14y ago
  At least there's always Siracusa.
- rrbrambley 14y ago
  Ditto. I'm hesitant to use the word "elitism" to describe the outspoken Apple fans, but it's especially aggravating when someone writes up extremely harsh reviews or descriptions of a competing product when it doesn't act or perform in the way that matches their ideal. Also, I know everyone has the right to freedom of speech and such, but I find it to be somewhat disgusting and irresponsible for people with large followings to take cheap shots at competing platforms just to get people riled up.
- CR45H 14y ago
  I'm sorry, but there was nothing "well-reasoned and well-crafted" about that article. He does come off as an Apple elitist, that's true. But how can he explain the chasm between Apple 'fanboys' and 'haters' when he clearly does not understand and perhaps has never used the other platforms? This to me is Apple elitism at it's worst. It may be a bit more polished but, ultimately, it's no different than the thousands of other Apple fanboy posts that fill the internet.
- thechut 14y ago
  You are absolutely correct. In fact, it is this (the elitism), that makes me hate Apple and their products more than any lack of feature in iOS ever could.
  - astrodust 14y ago
    The problem is not elitism, but that there is virtually only one "elite" brand and that is Apple. Sony at least gets points for trying. Everyone else is just flailing. This is an anomaly in any other industry, and many industries are the polar opposite. Can you imagine a world where there are hundreds of varieties of wine, but only several that are any good? Where you can pick between dozens of $2 bottles and several at $50 or more? Apple's perceived elitism comes from people that produce something they truly care about, that are opinionated and uncompromising. That this is shockingly rare in the technology industry is fundamentally worrying.
    - kmfrk 14y ago
      I think the problem is not that there is an "elite" brand and "the other one"; the problem is that when you are basically dealing with a two-party competition, especially in politics, people become incredibly entrenched, be it Windows vs. Mac, PlayStation vs. Xbox, Republicans vs. Democrats, and so on and so forth. It encourages a narrative of a hero and a villain, a protagonist and antagonist, right and wrong, good and bad.
    - mayanksinghal 14y ago
      I am sorry but it seems really unfair to developers of other tech products when you say truly caring about products is rare. Opinionated and uncompromising - that I may agree to, yes that is rare. But when we see attempts in this direction, by anyone other than a few companies (don't want to name Apple because I fear I will be marked as a fanboy), the attempts are marked as anti-user, draconian and anti-competitive (may not be illegal yet). Examples: Twitter pulling off API (widespread criticism), Facebook and Google+ real name policies (I think Facebook doesn't really enforce it anymore and Google+ now supports pseudonyms), Windows secure boot, Chrome making it difficult to sideload extensions, Quora locking up its contents etc. While we see all of these other attempts as largely evil, we consider Apple to be producing _pieces of art_ that are allows them to compromise on universal acceptability. We, however, don't give that leeway to virtually anything else.
- martythemaniak 14y ago
  >Apple’s products are opinionated. They say, “We know what’s best for you. Here it is. Oh, that thing you want to do? We won’t let you do that because it would suck. Trust us. If you don’t like it, there’s the door.” Problem is, Apple's acolytes won't leave you alone to go through the door - they'll follow you and keep telling you you're a wrong for wanting something different or thinking different (the irony is always lost). Some of them will even write long and detailed blog posts about how 3.5" is the perfect screen size, and and if you think differently, you're wrong. (http://dcurt.is/3-point-5-inches http://dcurt.is/3-point-5-inches), or maintain popular blogs which a little more than a large collection of stupid, snide remarks (Gruber).
  - mmastrac 14y ago
    In all fairness, he did call out Apple on the 4" screen being less-than-ideal: http://dcurt.is/4-inches/ http://dcurt.is/4-inches/
    - lokedhs 14y ago
      He's still completely ignoring the fact that Apple in their infinite wisdom decided that you absolutely must use two hands to zoom (pinch). That sort of defeats any argument that they designed the phone for one-handed use.
      - jxdxbx 14y ago
        This isn't true. You can double tap to zoom.
  - sbuk 14y ago
    I don't see that in the comment on many websites. Just reams (almost literally) of Android users doing precisely what you describe.
  - arrrg 14y ago
    I don’t think that’s very prevalent. I see exactly the opposite. People telling users of Apple products that they are wrong. They won’t leave you alone.
bitcartel 14y ago
Did a horse with blinkers write the article? > "I’ve noticed a very clear trend among tech sites I read: Android fans are unusually quick to fill the comment box with rage on articles that mention anything positive about Apple or its products. The reverse — Apple fans leaving angry comments on pro-Android articles — is almost completely absent from the sites I’ve seen"
- Pr0 14y ago
  Seriously.
- doe88 14y ago
  I've observed (non scientifically I concede) the same thing than Marco. Also another thing he wrote I find particularly true is the need for Android users to try to convince others people to switch to Android as if there was no good reason to own an iPhone. That's strange.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - mitchty 14y ago
    Totally agree, I personally don't go into Android posts with the intent to convert people over to my "team". I might post a comment relating to my experiences when they run contrary to what is being posted, but by and large I don't want to act pompous about the platform I use being the "one true platform". I do notice a large amount of android users seem to love apple stories and to immediately launch into diatribe mode. Which just makes me not want to bother reading android or apple articles entirely. Both sides need to chill out and realize we don't need another Ford versus Chevy debate with Android/Apple. They get tiring and aren't very productive.
    - yareally 14y ago
      Totally agree. One should like technology for the sake of what it is and what it does for us. The approach guys like Woz take to various devices regardless of brand is one that everyone should try to emulate.
mhd 14y ago
Most people don’t care about technology choices as much as we do. And this is where he lost me.
- jmduke 14y ago
  I took we to mean his blog readership, not Apple users. Maybe I was incorrect, but I hope I wasn't.
- shortformblog 14y ago
  He's talking about tech-leaning folks who visit sites like The Verge, not Apple users specifically, though I can see how easy that would be to misread.
- manicdee 14y ago
  The "we" in that context is clearly the readers of his magazine or blog. You clearly need to train Reading Comprehension to V.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
rayiner 14y ago
I think one phenomenon is that Android users have more experience with iOS than vice versa. I've been pretty much iOS/OS X-only since 2005/2006, I honestly don't know what's up in Android land these days. And, aside from an ill-fated tryst with Windows Phone 8, I'm not super interested in what's happening in Android land. I don't feel compelled to comment on Android threads because I don't really care. But I feel like Android users have an idea of why they chose Android over iOS and feel compelled to educate people in these threads.
- aetherson 14y ago
  Good call. I live in the bay area, and originally got on board with an Android phone because AT&T's service in this area was terrible (and, at the time, iPhone meant AT&T). I did this knowing, at the time, that Android was an inferior product, carrier aside. So I spent a good deal of time watching the iPhone, watching my Android, and watching Android catch up with the iPhone. When I recently bought another Android phone, it was a considered opinion that, for my needs, Android was now a superior product to iOS. And, with that background, it's almost irresistible to tell people who've been living in iOS land and seem to think that the state of Android today is the same as the state of Android three-four years ago, about all the things that I've been watching happen in that time.
  - sbuk 14y ago
    I switched for iOS to Android (a Nexus S) based on a lot of what the tech press and users were saying on forums and I have to say that it has been an awful experience for me. With Google dropping support for this model late last year, I will never buy a product that they or Samsung are involved with again.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- yareally 14y ago
  Average Android user I would be skeptical about, but ones that frequent the forums generally know their own devices fairly well (many are former iPhone owners at some point or switch back and forth). However, I would say that many of them also take cheapshots at Apple to defend their own positions better by claiming things that are absolutely not true (e.g. Android gets similar battery life with the same battery capacity, Android performance with Dalvik/Java is as good as native performance on iOS, a 5+ inch phone is easy to hold [Note 2]). Perhaps the most amusing thing I have heard are users that claim Android phones 2 years ago are as good as the iphone 5 is now. Perhaps if you rooted and installed Cyanogenmod[1] you got around a lot of the crap Android used to have or lacked and improved performance somewhat, but no way was the hardware or software of the Galaxy S or HTC Desire anywhere as good as the iPhone of today when it was stock. Galaxy S for one had that horrible RFS proprietary filesystem that Samsung stuck on it and was a mess to try to use stock. The rooting/modding community would later fix that by formatting it to ext4 after some extensive work. One thing I can say about the Galaxy S though is its testament to stand up to time and still running the latest version of Android. You can grab a Galaxy S off ebay for well under $100 in great condition, root/unlock it and flash Cyanogenmod 10.1 on it (Android 4.2.1) and it runs quite well for 2.5 year old hardware. Part of that is due to it sharing near identical hardware to the Nexus S, but it's still quite amazing. [1] http://www.cyanogenmod.org/ http://www.cyanogenmod.org/
CR45H 14y ago
"But I never see Microsoft fans attacking Android fans, or vice versa. And the rise of anti-Apple anger has risen dramatically as Apple has been so successful in recent years." Seriously? Is he completely blind. The amount anger aimed at Google/Android from the Microsoft camp over the past year has been deafening. For me it's the other way around. I no longer see Microsoft fans attacking Apple (like they used to). Now, they almost always attack Android/Google. One more thing. If Apple didn't start the fanboy culture, they certainly took it up a notch. Apple fanboys/girls have been filling the internet with crap for years. Now that Android has become so popular, a lot of people that used to feel marginalized have decided to jump on the bandwagon and they are taking every opportunity to vent. Overall I find this all quite disturbing but not for the same reasons as the original author who quite honestly, comes across as a bit of an elitist. He does make some good points when he explains that these are different platforms with different pros/cons and everyone will never agree to use the same platform. However, it is evident that he just doesn't know anything about anything other than Apple. The new Microsoft products (Windows Phone 8, Windows RT, Windows 8 App Store) are not open platforms. They are indeed just as closed as iOS (and much more so than OSX). In fact I wish that all of the fanboys/girls online would spend their time discussing the real differences between these companies and what the net effect is on users. Maybe then we could get some things fixed. For example I am an Android user and, though I REALLY LIKE Apple products, I will not purchase and use a device that I cannot gain root access to. The way I see it, if it's Apple's device to control, than I am merely renting it. On the other hand, one thing that Apple has impressed me with is how they have taken away control from the phone companies. This is where I wish Google would fight harder. I want to see a real Nexus device on every carrier. Anyway, I feel these are things that merit real discussion, consensus building, online petitions, etc.... ...fanboy bickering is pointless and deconstructive. In the end we, as users, need to forget about being fanboys and learn to be activists.
- thechut 14y ago
  Yes, this is the exact same feeling I got from reading the article. He can't scold people for making Anti-Apple comments while he is making an extremely pro-Apple standpoint. It just does not come off as genuine. Instead of more partisan arguments (to use his analogy) we need actual discussions about each platforms respective shortcomings. But many people are not qualified to have an objective discussion about these platforms because in many cases naysayers have only used the platform they prefer.
itomek 14y ago
Oldie but i still laugh every time I read it. http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant
- SIULHT 14y ago
  That. was. awesome.
capkutay 14y ago
I think Apple has positioned itself well in the day-to-day life of the average consumer, and they will likely hold that spot for some time to come. Apple almost sold more iphones in the last 3 months than they did in the whole year of 2010. Yet to most people Apple is also doomed and everything they're doing is wrong. Outside the circle of tech journalists and gadget aficionados, people want Apple products. I hear great things about the jellybean and samsung phones and I read anti-apple writings on the web all the time. On the other hand, almost everyone I know with a smartphone has an iPhone. I don't think of myself as being in a bubble, I'm a student at a big college in a big city, and most of the people I come across have iPhones/ipods/even iPads. Families buy eachother apple products. When I see a non-iPhone user, they are more often not even using a smartphone, but waiting for the iPhone5 or 5S, in transition to getting an iPhone.. I don't doubt google created an amazing mobile OS, but I certainly don't see those phones on a day to day basis.
- snogglethorpe 14y ago
  > I don't doubt google created an amazing mobile OS, but I certainly don't see those phones on a day to day basis. The iphone is certainly a very good product, and deservedly very popular, but keep in mind, that Android phones actually out-number it overall. Maybe in your circle and/or location that's not the case, but around here a huge proportion of smartphones I see people using on the train or in cafes are not iphones. It depends very much on where you are and the state of the local cellphone market. I'm in Japan, and the iphone somewhat took the local makers by surprise, but they've come back with a vengeance. The iphone still has a lot of cachet (as do other Apple products), and probably sells more than any other single smartphone—but there are a huge number of other smartphones available, and the iphone doesn't dominate the market to the same extent it seems to in the U.S. [Over time I'd actually expect the iphone's market share to lessen here, as other makers hone their products for the market (something they're very good at), and the iphone's place as a status symbol slips.]
- swedegeek 14y ago
  FYI... IDC press release on 2012-11-01 "Android Marks Fourth Anniversary Since Launch with 75.0% Market Share in Third Quarter, According to IDC" https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS23771812 https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS23771812
rwallace 14y ago
The explanation for anti-Apple anger is far simpler, and doesn't need a reference to the actual products at all. Anger comes from insecurity. People get angry when they feel threatened. People feel threats come from the top dog (this assessment is usually not very accurate, but it is human psychology). People who feel (whether rightly or wrongly) that their side is securely on top, don't bother getting angry. Thus, in the nineties the Internet was full of shouting about 'micro$oft' whereas nobody ever bothered criticizing Apple, because everyone perceived that Microsoft was winning an Apple was losing. Today, Apple is perceived as the top dog and therefore a threat. I don't know who's going to be the top dog ten years from now, but I do know whoever it is, that's where the anger is going to be directed.
- redler 14y ago
  Apple has the interesting distinction of having been gleefully kicked while they were down (nonstandard toy, the "beleaguered" epithet, clone or die, just build Windows boxes, Michael Dell's infamous corporate governance advice) -- and gleefully kicked since they've been up (monopolist, elitist, walled garden, destroyer of choice, market share trumps profit, law of large numbers). While there's some truth in most of the criticisms, it's also clear that there's just something about Apple: an opinionated company, often and still conflated with the polarizing personality of Steve Jobs. To some their success is inexplicable and galling, to others a thrilling reversal. We love to love and love to hate Apple.
- gbog 14y ago
  Maybe, but no. Anti-Apple anger can also come from people like me who prefer open protocols, open markets, open ecosystems, and are saddened to see people naming themselves "hackers" using tools that are obviously handcuffing them.
  - rwallace 14y ago
    I certainly agree those are valid reasons. I'm just pointing out why nobody gets mad at Nintendo, though the Wii is even considerably more closed than the iPhone.
  - 14y ago
niels_olson 14y ago
You can't blame the artist for their fans.
nsmartt 14y ago
My issue is fundamentally similar to my issue with Google or Facebook. Information and money are power. Apple is the richest company on the planet. I'm uncomfortable with Apple gaining more money and, therefore, more power. Their actions have often been highly disconcerting. I'm surprised that I don't see more people who consider Apple to be dangerous. I don't really have issues with Apple products. In my experience, they've been of fine quality.
oz 14y ago
>"Our technology choices reflect our values. People willing to yield some control to Apple for their needs are more likely to enjoy the benefits that Apple’s products bring by exerting that control. But people who don’t like being told what to do — people who believe they know what’s best for them, want full control over everything, and are willing to accept the resulting responsibilities — will be more comfortable with the alternatives." This. A thousand times this. Most people who know me consider me a rational guy. I'm the type that reads LessWrong, understands cognitive biases and knows who Kahneman & Tversky are. But I find myself with a deep...dislike of Apple. I fully admit that their products are superb. I admire, and respect the fanaticism and detail that goes into their products. As someone who loves money, I respect a company that rose from the ashes to having 100+ billion dollars in the bank. But the notion that some guy deep in the bowels of Cupertino knows what I want more than I do makes me recoil violently. I think it's the libertarian in me. I have an inherent distrust of, and contempt for institutions, particularly when they want to decide what's 'right' for me. And the, dare I say cultish (ate least to me) behaviour of many Macolytes only makes me more wary. It's like the recent article proclaiming Apples 'genius' in acquiring Bill Nguyen's team after the Color acquisition. It reminds me of the North Korea articles I've been reading today. Note that you'll never see any posts on HN from me engaging in any flamewars about Apple, because as an individualist, I believe that my preferences are exactly that: my preferences. Others are allowed to have theirs. I do find the sycophancy by the usual suspects distasteful, though. Kudos to Marco for a very insightful piece.
brudgers 14y ago
Much of the reaction to Apple can be attributed to the culture of contempt Apple fosters among its customers and communicated through its corporate actions. People respond negatively to being held in contempt. Film at 11. From, "They have no taste" embodied in "I'm a Mac" to lawsuits against...well name a competitor they haven't sued...Apple has encouraged the disparagement of users of competing products. "Blue Screen" is most frequently used by Apple customers on the internet. (hyperbole) People get angry over Apple for the same reasons they get angry at Fox News - intellectual dishonesty for the sake of ideology. Only Gruber could attribute the rise of flat design aesthetics to some app few people own while ignoring Metro. PG accuses Microsoft of malfeasance in his essays on the Good. It's never enough to love Apple. That love requires someone else be put down. (/hyperbole)
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
frozenport 14y ago
Its important to note that Apple, being a hardware+software, solution receives hate from 2 sides. Some people don't like OS X Some people don't like paying 2x for the same hardware I suspect that this alone contributes to a 2x increase in vitriol.
eertami 14y ago
>Apple’s products say “no” a lot. Which is why it's so depressing that so many wallets say "yes" to apple.
- general_failure 14y ago
  here take an upvote :)
gbog 14y ago
Disagree. Anti-Apple crowd has at least partly a very solid and rational ground to stand upon. Apple's much admired and followed direction is pointing exactly to the opposite way that most hackers should prefer and push towards. Look at an iPhone 5 and a Raspberry Pi: one goes North and the other goes South. One had a heavy marketing and costs a lot, and cannot be opened without breaking it. The other the opposite: it isn't even sold in a "box"! So, now, objectively, all things being equal, tell me frankly which one in an iPhone 5 and a Raspberry Pi should have the preference of hackers (in the wide sense)? And don't tell me a Pi can't be used as a phone: I am well aware of that. My question is general, which device is more akin of hacker culture, and why?
- sbuk 14y ago
  THis is the bubble that we talk about. Products like the iPhone are for consumers. That's everybody. When it comes down to it, it seems that "hackers" are pissed that "normal" people are "getting" computing.
swedegeek 14y ago
Let's be honest here... Nearly everyone who is passionate about one platform or another lives in some kind of glass house. Why does Arment feel it's necessary to throw stones like this? I realize some are reading this as a more "balanced" post, but I have to side with those considering this to be yet more elitism as I've come to expect. Just as anecdotally, but no less data-driven, there is an obvious counter argument to his claim. I will concede his notion that Apple people don't spew anti-Android on pro-Android posts. That is because, from my own informal observations, Apple fans are too busy defending their own gates on the Apple support forums. It is unequivocally the most combative and abrasive "help forum" I've ever experienced. As a person who owns and really enjoy Apple products (the MacBook Air, for my needs, is hands-down the best computer I've ever owned... and what I'm typing on at this moment), they're still far from perfect. Numerous times I've tried searching for resolutions to issues, and naturally, discussions.apple.com is typically a top result on Google. Even when finding an OP that precisely describes the issue I'm experiencing, more often than not, responses are along the exact lines of how Arment describes Apple's response: "You don’t need that. Here, try this partial workaround or alternative solution instead." Except, they usually don't "just work." And yes, I really do need what Apple broke. It took until 10.8.2 for Remote Desktop to work reliably again after Mountain Lion's initial release. I spent hours researching and found no reasonable workaround to get an piece of software written by Apple to work with Apple's OS. But yet, there were plenty of people asking why that was needed. I merely had to setup this convoluted alternative and I would be back in business... oh, wait. That still didn't work. In my mind, this is worse than Arment's claim, as it's Apple people getting attacked by other Apple people for the heresy of wanting something to work. He's railing against the anger from Microsoft and Android, but he is okay with the cannibalism in the Apple camp? I could go on, but I feel like I've already written a disproportionate amount more than I actually care about this guy's hypocritical, fact-less editorials. I guess my opinion finally got dragged low enough with this post to finally speak up. I would suggest he looks a little closer to the mothership before trying to paint this kind of picture. However, I can't fool myself into thinking he'd be the slightest bit open to the feedback.
Steko 14y ago
Marco got lost in diagnosis wonderland here. Anti-platform anger is like anything else in the adversarial world of online commenting. People from Michigan hate on Ohio State. People from Alabama hate on Obama. People with PCs hate on Macs. People with Xbox 360s hate on Playstations. People with Android hate on Apple. If he doesn't see people with Apple hating on Android he isn't looking hard enough. True there are more people that hate on Apple but they are the biggest target now and that's to be expected just as there were more people hating on MS when they were the biggest target.
zyb09 14y ago
Ah my favorite topic, ok here we go: I disagree. Apple fans are the absolute worst. Not want to offend anyone here, but there's a certain type of delusional Apple fans, also known as members of the Apple Cult. The member strongly believes, that Apple products are perfect, flawless, and that every other competing product is inferior and can't comprehend why some people prefer other products. He/She will also always defend everything Apple does, spinning and twisting every news story to make Apple appear in a positive light and often directly contradict their previous stance, when Apple does something unexpected. These types also collect old Apple computers, like they're trophys, and pay for a cinema ticket to watch a Steve Jobs interview. They glorify Apples quarterly earning report and don't seem to notice that it's actually them paying a $500 profit margin on an iPhone - or maybe they're just happy to do so. I know, because I've met a few in real life, and the worst thing it's completely pointless to discuss anything related to Apples decisions with them - it's like talking against a wall. That's why they get called Sheeple, mindless worse ship of a corporation. Disclaimer: I don't hate Apple, I'm happy we have 2 ecosystems, strictly talking about the fans here.
- sbuk 14y ago
  Nah. Android fans are worse. Take a look at sites like The Verge, Gizmodo, Engadget and the Register. I see the behaviour that you describe from Google fans far more of late.
  - sbuk 14y ago
    Nicely exhibited by the down vote. Stay classy HN.
    - anthonyb 14y ago
      Everything that you've posted in this thread has been either missing the point or obvious partisan shilling for Apple. I'm not surprised that you're getting downvoted.
      - sbuk 14y ago
olgeni 14y ago
> No, you can’t have that hardware keyboard or removable battery. No, you can’t install that app. No, you can’t have that feature." "And yes, you can sit still in this drawer while I upgrade my custom rom on the other device. But don't worry, you are so elite. See you later."

56 points by mh_ 14y ago

A lot of the elitism (or at least what I consider elitism) from Gruber, Arment, Siegler et all is incredibly off-putting to me -- and I own a MacBook Air, iPad, and iPhone. That being said, I think this is an incredibly well-reasoned and well-crafted explanation of the massive chasm between Apple 'fanboys' and Apple 'haters' -- and explains to me why, as a current zealot of the iOS ecosystem, I nonetheless find so much Apple commentary off-putting. Really great job by Marco and makes me much more inclined to subscribe to the Magazine. Nothing's perfect for everyone. Some things are perfect for some people.

Apocryphon 14y ago
At least there's always Siracusa.
rrbrambley 14y ago
Ditto. I'm hesitant to use the word "elitism" to describe the outspoken Apple fans, but it's especially aggravating when someone writes up extremely harsh reviews or descriptions of a competing product when it doesn't act or perform in the way that matches their ideal. Also, I know everyone has the right to freedom of speech and such, but I find it to be somewhat disgusting and irresponsible for people with large followings to take cheap shots at competing platforms just to get people riled up.
CR45H 14y ago
I'm sorry, but there was nothing "well-reasoned and well-crafted" about that article. He does come off as an Apple elitist, that's true. But how can he explain the chasm between Apple 'fanboys' and 'haters' when he clearly does not understand and perhaps has never used the other platforms? This to me is Apple elitism at it's worst. It may be a bit more polished but, ultimately, it's no different than the thousands of other Apple fanboy posts that fill the internet.
thechut 14y ago
You are absolutely correct. In fact, it is this (the elitism), that makes me hate Apple and their products more than any lack of feature in iOS ever could.
- astrodust 14y ago
  The problem is not elitism, but that there is virtually only one "elite" brand and that is Apple. Sony at least gets points for trying. Everyone else is just flailing. This is an anomaly in any other industry, and many industries are the polar opposite. Can you imagine a world where there are hundreds of varieties of wine, but only several that are any good? Where you can pick between dozens of $2 bottles and several at $50 or more? Apple's perceived elitism comes from people that produce something they truly care about, that are opinionated and uncompromising. That this is shockingly rare in the technology industry is fundamentally worrying.
  - kmfrk 14y ago
    I think the problem is not that there is an "elite" brand and "the other one"; the problem is that when you are basically dealing with a two-party competition, especially in politics, people become incredibly entrenched, be it Windows vs. Mac, PlayStation vs. Xbox, Republicans vs. Democrats, and so on and so forth. It encourages a narrative of a hero and a villain, a protagonist and antagonist, right and wrong, good and bad.
  - mayanksinghal 14y ago
    I am sorry but it seems really unfair to developers of other tech products when you say truly caring about products is rare. Opinionated and uncompromising - that I may agree to, yes that is rare. But when we see attempts in this direction, by anyone other than a few companies (don't want to name Apple because I fear I will be marked as a fanboy), the attempts are marked as anti-user, draconian and anti-competitive (may not be illegal yet). Examples: Twitter pulling off API (widespread criticism), Facebook and Google+ real name policies (I think Facebook doesn't really enforce it anymore and Google+ now supports pseudonyms), Windows secure boot, Chrome making it difficult to sideload extensions, Quora locking up its contents etc. While we see all of these other attempts as largely evil, we consider Apple to be producing _pieces of art_ that are allows them to compromise on universal acceptability. We, however, don't give that leeway to virtually anything else.
martythemaniak 14y ago
>Apple’s products are opinionated. They say, “We know what’s best for you. Here it is. Oh, that thing you want to do? We won’t let you do that because it would suck. Trust us. If you don’t like it, there’s the door.” Problem is, Apple's acolytes won't leave you alone to go through the door - they'll follow you and keep telling you you're a wrong for wanting something different or thinking different (the irony is always lost). Some of them will even write long and detailed blog posts about how 3.5" is the perfect screen size, and and if you think differently, you're wrong. (http://dcurt.is/3-point-5-inches http://dcurt.is/3-point-5-inches), or maintain popular blogs which a little more than a large collection of stupid, snide remarks (Gruber).
- mmastrac 14y ago
  In all fairness, he did call out Apple on the 4" screen being less-than-ideal: http://dcurt.is/4-inches/ http://dcurt.is/4-inches/
  - lokedhs 14y ago
    He's still completely ignoring the fact that Apple in their infinite wisdom decided that you absolutely must use two hands to zoom (pinch). That sort of defeats any argument that they designed the phone for one-handed use.
    - jxdxbx 14y ago
      This isn't true. You can double tap to zoom.
- sbuk 14y ago
  I don't see that in the comment on many websites. Just reams (almost literally) of Android users doing precisely what you describe.
- arrrg 14y ago
  I don’t think that’s very prevalent. I see exactly the opposite. People telling users of Apple products that they are wrong. They won’t leave you alone.

bitcartel 14y ago

Did a horse with blinkers write the article? > "I’ve noticed a very clear trend among tech sites I read: Android fans are unusually quick to fill the comment box with rage on articles that mention anything positive about Apple or its products. The reverse — Apple fans leaving angry comments on pro-Android articles — is almost completely absent from the sites I’ve seen"

Pr0 14y ago
Seriously.
doe88 14y ago
I've observed (non scientifically I concede) the same thing than Marco. Also another thing he wrote I find particularly true is the need for Android users to try to convince others people to switch to Android as if there was no good reason to own an iPhone. That's strange.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- mitchty 14y ago
  Totally agree, I personally don't go into Android posts with the intent to convert people over to my "team". I might post a comment relating to my experiences when they run contrary to what is being posted, but by and large I don't want to act pompous about the platform I use being the "one true platform". I do notice a large amount of android users seem to love apple stories and to immediately launch into diatribe mode. Which just makes me not want to bother reading android or apple articles entirely. Both sides need to chill out and realize we don't need another Ford versus Chevy debate with Android/Apple. They get tiring and aren't very productive.
  - yareally 14y ago
    Totally agree. One should like technology for the sake of what it is and what it does for us. The approach guys like Woz take to various devices regardless of brand is one that everyone should try to emulate.

mhd 14y ago

Most people don’t care about technology choices as much as we do. And this is where he lost me.

jmduke 14y ago
I took we to mean his blog readership, not Apple users. Maybe I was incorrect, but I hope I wasn't.
shortformblog 14y ago
He's talking about tech-leaning folks who visit sites like The Verge, not Apple users specifically, though I can see how easy that would be to misread.
manicdee 14y ago
The "we" in that context is clearly the readers of his magazine or blog. You clearly need to train Reading Comprehension to V.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

rayiner 14y ago

I think one phenomenon is that Android users have more experience with iOS than vice versa. I've been pretty much iOS/OS X-only since 2005/2006, I honestly don't know what's up in Android land these days. And, aside from an ill-fated tryst with Windows Phone 8, I'm not super interested in what's happening in Android land. I don't feel compelled to comment on Android threads because I don't really care. But I feel like Android users have an idea of why they chose Android over iOS and feel compelled to educate people in these threads.

aetherson 14y ago
Good call. I live in the bay area, and originally got on board with an Android phone because AT&T's service in this area was terrible (and, at the time, iPhone meant AT&T). I did this knowing, at the time, that Android was an inferior product, carrier aside. So I spent a good deal of time watching the iPhone, watching my Android, and watching Android catch up with the iPhone. When I recently bought another Android phone, it was a considered opinion that, for my needs, Android was now a superior product to iOS. And, with that background, it's almost irresistible to tell people who've been living in iOS land and seem to think that the state of Android today is the same as the state of Android three-four years ago, about all the things that I've been watching happen in that time.
- sbuk 14y ago
  I switched for iOS to Android (a Nexus S) based on a lot of what the tech press and users were saying on forums and I have to say that it has been an awful experience for me. With Google dropping support for this model late last year, I will never buy a product that they or Samsung are involved with again.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
yareally 14y ago
Average Android user I would be skeptical about, but ones that frequent the forums generally know their own devices fairly well (many are former iPhone owners at some point or switch back and forth). However, I would say that many of them also take cheapshots at Apple to defend their own positions better by claiming things that are absolutely not true (e.g. Android gets similar battery life with the same battery capacity, Android performance with Dalvik/Java is as good as native performance on iOS, a 5+ inch phone is easy to hold [Note 2]). Perhaps the most amusing thing I have heard are users that claim Android phones 2 years ago are as good as the iphone 5 is now. Perhaps if you rooted and installed Cyanogenmod[1] you got around a lot of the crap Android used to have or lacked and improved performance somewhat, but no way was the hardware or software of the Galaxy S or HTC Desire anywhere as good as the iPhone of today when it was stock. Galaxy S for one had that horrible RFS proprietary filesystem that Samsung stuck on it and was a mess to try to use stock. The rooting/modding community would later fix that by formatting it to ext4 after some extensive work. One thing I can say about the Galaxy S though is its testament to stand up to time and still running the latest version of Android. You can grab a Galaxy S off ebay for well under $100 in great condition, root/unlock it and flash Cyanogenmod 10.1 on it (Android 4.2.1) and it runs quite well for 2.5 year old hardware. Part of that is due to it sharing near identical hardware to the Nexus S, but it's still quite amazing. [1] http://www.cyanogenmod.org/ http://www.cyanogenmod.org/

CR45H 14y ago

"But I never see Microsoft fans attacking Android fans, or vice versa. And the rise of anti-Apple anger has risen dramatically as Apple has been so successful in recent years." Seriously? Is he completely blind. The amount anger aimed at Google/Android from the Microsoft camp over the past year has been deafening. For me it's the other way around. I no longer see Microsoft fans attacking Apple (like they used to). Now, they almost always attack Android/Google. One more thing. If Apple didn't start the fanboy culture, they certainly took it up a notch. Apple fanboys/girls have been filling the internet with crap for years. Now that Android has become so popular, a lot of people that used to feel marginalized have decided to jump on the bandwagon and they are taking every opportunity to vent. Overall I find this all quite disturbing but not for the same reasons as the original author who quite honestly, comes across as a bit of an elitist. He does make some good points when he explains that these are different platforms with different pros/cons and everyone will never agree to use the same platform. However, it is evident that he just doesn't know anything about anything other than Apple. The new Microsoft products (Windows Phone 8, Windows RT, Windows 8 App Store) are not open platforms. They are indeed just as closed as iOS (and much more so than OSX). In fact I wish that all of the fanboys/girls online would spend their time discussing the real differences between these companies and what the net effect is on users. Maybe then we could get some things fixed. For example I am an Android user and, though I REALLY LIKE Apple products, I will not purchase and use a device that I cannot gain root access to. The way I see it, if it's Apple's device to control, than I am merely renting it. On the other hand, one thing that Apple has impressed me with is how they have taken away control from the phone companies. This is where I wish Google would fight harder. I want to see a real Nexus device on every carrier. Anyway, I feel these are things that merit real discussion, consensus building, online petitions, etc.... ...fanboy bickering is pointless and deconstructive. In the end we, as users, need to forget about being fanboys and learn to be activists.

thechut 14y ago
Yes, this is the exact same feeling I got from reading the article. He can't scold people for making Anti-Apple comments while he is making an extremely pro-Apple standpoint. It just does not come off as genuine. Instead of more partisan arguments (to use his analogy) we need actual discussions about each platforms respective shortcomings. But many people are not qualified to have an objective discussion about these platforms because in many cases naysayers have only used the platform they prefer.

itomek 14y ago

Oldie but i still laugh every time I read it. http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant

SIULHT 14y ago
That. was. awesome.

capkutay 14y ago

I think Apple has positioned itself well in the day-to-day life of the average consumer, and they will likely hold that spot for some time to come. Apple almost sold more iphones in the last 3 months than they did in the whole year of 2010. Yet to most people Apple is also doomed and everything they're doing is wrong. Outside the circle of tech journalists and gadget aficionados, people want Apple products. I hear great things about the jellybean and samsung phones and I read anti-apple writings on the web all the time. On the other hand, almost everyone I know with a smartphone has an iPhone. I don't think of myself as being in a bubble, I'm a student at a big college in a big city, and most of the people I come across have iPhones/ipods/even iPads. Families buy eachother apple products. When I see a non-iPhone user, they are more often not even using a smartphone, but waiting for the iPhone5 or 5S, in transition to getting an iPhone.. I don't doubt google created an amazing mobile OS, but I certainly don't see those phones on a day to day basis.

snogglethorpe 14y ago
> I don't doubt google created an amazing mobile OS, but I certainly don't see those phones on a day to day basis. The iphone is certainly a very good product, and deservedly very popular, but keep in mind, that Android phones actually out-number it overall. Maybe in your circle and/or location that's not the case, but around here a huge proportion of smartphones I see people using on the train or in cafes are not iphones. It depends very much on where you are and the state of the local cellphone market. I'm in Japan, and the iphone somewhat took the local makers by surprise, but they've come back with a vengeance. The iphone still has a lot of cachet (as do other Apple products), and probably sells more than any other single smartphone—but there are a huge number of other smartphones available, and the iphone doesn't dominate the market to the same extent it seems to in the U.S. [Over time I'd actually expect the iphone's market share to lessen here, as other makers hone their products for the market (something they're very good at), and the iphone's place as a status symbol slips.]
swedegeek 14y ago
FYI... IDC press release on 2012-11-01 "Android Marks Fourth Anniversary Since Launch with 75.0% Market Share in Third Quarter, According to IDC" https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS23771812 https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS23771812

rwallace 14y ago

The explanation for anti-Apple anger is far simpler, and doesn't need a reference to the actual products at all. Anger comes from insecurity. People get angry when they feel threatened. People feel threats come from the top dog (this assessment is usually not very accurate, but it is human psychology). People who feel (whether rightly or wrongly) that their side is securely on top, don't bother getting angry. Thus, in the nineties the Internet was full of shouting about 'micro$oft' whereas nobody ever bothered criticizing Apple, because everyone perceived that Microsoft was winning an Apple was losing. Today, Apple is perceived as the top dog and therefore a threat. I don't know who's going to be the top dog ten years from now, but I do know whoever it is, that's where the anger is going to be directed.

redler 14y ago
Apple has the interesting distinction of having been gleefully kicked while they were down (nonstandard toy, the "beleaguered" epithet, clone or die, just build Windows boxes, Michael Dell's infamous corporate governance advice) -- and gleefully kicked since they've been up (monopolist, elitist, walled garden, destroyer of choice, market share trumps profit, law of large numbers). While there's some truth in most of the criticisms, it's also clear that there's just something about Apple: an opinionated company, often and still conflated with the polarizing personality of Steve Jobs. To some their success is inexplicable and galling, to others a thrilling reversal. We love to love and love to hate Apple.
gbog 14y ago
Maybe, but no. Anti-Apple anger can also come from people like me who prefer open protocols, open markets, open ecosystems, and are saddened to see people naming themselves "hackers" using tools that are obviously handcuffing them.
- rwallace 14y ago
  I certainly agree those are valid reasons. I'm just pointing out why nobody gets mad at Nintendo, though the Wii is even considerably more closed than the iPhone.
- 14y ago

niels_olson 14y ago

You can't blame the artist for their fans.

nsmartt 14y ago

My issue is fundamentally similar to my issue with Google or Facebook. Information and money are power. Apple is the richest company on the planet. I'm uncomfortable with Apple gaining more money and, therefore, more power. Their actions have often been highly disconcerting. I'm surprised that I don't see more people who consider Apple to be dangerous. I don't really have issues with Apple products. In my experience, they've been of fine quality.

oz 14y ago

>"Our technology choices reflect our values. People willing to yield some control to Apple for their needs are more likely to enjoy the benefits that Apple’s products bring by exerting that control. But people who don’t like being told what to do — people who believe they know what’s best for them, want full control over everything, and are willing to accept the resulting responsibilities — will be more comfortable with the alternatives." This. A thousand times this. Most people who know me consider me a rational guy. I'm the type that reads LessWrong, understands cognitive biases and knows who Kahneman & Tversky are. But I find myself with a deep...dislike of Apple. I fully admit that their products are superb. I admire, and respect the fanaticism and detail that goes into their products. As someone who loves money, I respect a company that rose from the ashes to having 100+ billion dollars in the bank. But the notion that some guy deep in the bowels of Cupertino knows what I want more than I do makes me recoil violently. I think it's the libertarian in me. I have an inherent distrust of, and contempt for institutions, particularly when they want to decide what's 'right' for me. And the, dare I say cultish (ate least to me) behaviour of many Macolytes only makes me more wary. It's like the recent article proclaiming Apples 'genius' in acquiring Bill Nguyen's team after the Color acquisition. It reminds me of the North Korea articles I've been reading today. Note that you'll never see any posts on HN from me engaging in any flamewars about Apple, because as an individualist, I believe that my preferences are exactly that: my preferences. Others are allowed to have theirs. I do find the sycophancy by the usual suspects distasteful, though. Kudos to Marco for a very insightful piece.

brudgers 14y ago

Much of the reaction to Apple can be attributed to the culture of contempt Apple fosters among its customers and communicated through its corporate actions. People respond negatively to being held in contempt. Film at 11. From, "They have no taste" embodied in "I'm a Mac" to lawsuits against...well name a competitor they haven't sued...Apple has encouraged the disparagement of users of competing products. "Blue Screen" is most frequently used by Apple customers on the internet. (hyperbole) People get angry over Apple for the same reasons they get angry at Fox News - intellectual dishonesty for the sake of ideology. Only Gruber could attribute the rise of flat design aesthetics to some app few people own while ignoring Metro. PG accuses Microsoft of malfeasance in his essays on the Good. It's never enough to love Apple. That love requires someone else be put down. (/hyperbole)

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

frozenport 14y ago

Its important to note that Apple, being a hardware+software, solution receives hate from 2 sides. Some people don't like OS X Some people don't like paying 2x for the same hardware I suspect that this alone contributes to a 2x increase in vitriol.

eertami 14y ago

>Apple’s products say “no” a lot. Which is why it's so depressing that so many wallets say "yes" to apple.

general_failure 14y ago
here take an upvote :)

gbog 14y ago

Disagree. Anti-Apple crowd has at least partly a very solid and rational ground to stand upon. Apple's much admired and followed direction is pointing exactly to the opposite way that most hackers should prefer and push towards. Look at an iPhone 5 and a Raspberry Pi: one goes North and the other goes South. One had a heavy marketing and costs a lot, and cannot be opened without breaking it. The other the opposite: it isn't even sold in a "box"! So, now, objectively, all things being equal, tell me frankly which one in an iPhone 5 and a Raspberry Pi should have the preference of hackers (in the wide sense)? And don't tell me a Pi can't be used as a phone: I am well aware of that. My question is general, which device is more akin of hacker culture, and why?

sbuk 14y ago
THis is the bubble that we talk about. Products like the iPhone are for consumers. That's everybody. When it comes down to it, it seems that "hackers" are pissed that "normal" people are "getting" computing.

swedegeek 14y ago

Let's be honest here... Nearly everyone who is passionate about one platform or another lives in some kind of glass house. Why does Arment feel it's necessary to throw stones like this? I realize some are reading this as a more "balanced" post, but I have to side with those considering this to be yet more elitism as I've come to expect. Just as anecdotally, but no less data-driven, there is an obvious counter argument to his claim. I will concede his notion that Apple people don't spew anti-Android on pro-Android posts. That is because, from my own informal observations, Apple fans are too busy defending their own gates on the Apple support forums. It is unequivocally the most combative and abrasive "help forum" I've ever experienced. As a person who owns and really enjoy Apple products (the MacBook Air, for my needs, is hands-down the best computer I've ever owned... and what I'm typing on at this moment), they're still far from perfect. Numerous times I've tried searching for resolutions to issues, and naturally, discussions.apple.com is typically a top result on Google. Even when finding an OP that precisely describes the issue I'm experiencing, more often than not, responses are along the exact lines of how Arment describes Apple's response: "You don’t need that. Here, try this partial workaround or alternative solution instead." Except, they usually don't "just work." And yes, I really do need what Apple broke. It took until 10.8.2 for Remote Desktop to work reliably again after Mountain Lion's initial release. I spent hours researching and found no reasonable workaround to get an piece of software written by Apple to work with Apple's OS. But yet, there were plenty of people asking why that was needed. I merely had to setup this convoluted alternative and I would be back in business... oh, wait. That still didn't work. In my mind, this is worse than Arment's claim, as it's Apple people getting attacked by other Apple people for the heresy of wanting something to work. He's railing against the anger from Microsoft and Android, but he is okay with the cannibalism in the Apple camp? I could go on, but I feel like I've already written a disproportionate amount more than I actually care about this guy's hypocritical, fact-less editorials. I guess my opinion finally got dragged low enough with this post to finally speak up. I would suggest he looks a little closer to the mothership before trying to paint this kind of picture. However, I can't fool myself into thinking he'd be the slightest bit open to the feedback.

Steko 14y ago

Marco got lost in diagnosis wonderland here. Anti-platform anger is like anything else in the adversarial world of online commenting. People from Michigan hate on Ohio State. People from Alabama hate on Obama. People with PCs hate on Macs. People with Xbox 360s hate on Playstations. People with Android hate on Apple. If he doesn't see people with Apple hating on Android he isn't looking hard enough. True there are more people that hate on Apple but they are the biggest target now and that's to be expected just as there were more people hating on MS when they were the biggest target.

zyb09 14y ago

Ah my favorite topic, ok here we go: I disagree. Apple fans are the absolute worst. Not want to offend anyone here, but there's a certain type of delusional Apple fans, also known as members of the Apple Cult. The member strongly believes, that Apple products are perfect, flawless, and that every other competing product is inferior and can't comprehend why some people prefer other products. He/She will also always defend everything Apple does, spinning and twisting every news story to make Apple appear in a positive light and often directly contradict their previous stance, when Apple does something unexpected. These types also collect old Apple computers, like they're trophys, and pay for a cinema ticket to watch a Steve Jobs interview. They glorify Apples quarterly earning report and don't seem to notice that it's actually them paying a $500 profit margin on an iPhone - or maybe they're just happy to do so. I know, because I've met a few in real life, and the worst thing it's completely pointless to discuss anything related to Apples decisions with them - it's like talking against a wall. That's why they get called Sheeple, mindless worse ship of a corporation. Disclaimer: I don't hate Apple, I'm happy we have 2 ecosystems, strictly talking about the fans here.

sbuk 14y ago
Nah. Android fans are worse. Take a look at sites like The Verge, Gizmodo, Engadget and the Register. I see the behaviour that you describe from Google fans far more of late.
- sbuk 14y ago
  Nicely exhibited by the down vote. Stay classy HN.
  - anthonyb 14y ago
    Everything that you've posted in this thread has been either missing the point or obvious partisan shilling for Apple. I'm not surprised that you're getting downvoted.
    - sbuk 14y ago

olgeni 14y ago

> No, you can’t have that hardware keyboard or removable battery. No, you can’t install that app. No, you can’t have that feature." "And yes, you can sit still in this drawer while I upgrade my custom rom on the other device. But don't worry, you are so elite. See you later."