15 ms·

That blog article was one of the stupidest things I've ever read. I never got the encouragement or support to pursue my hobbies at a young age, whether from pa

by kyro 14y ago

That blog article was one of the stupidest things I've ever read. I never got the encouragement or support to pursue my hobbies at a young age, whether from parents or friends, and would've killed to have a community like this that could've praised me and pushed me forward. To accuse a kid mentioning the fact that he's 14 in his submission title as being manipulative really reflects on how out of touch you are with the way humans operate. A kid his age is looking to show off his work, proud that he's not wasting his time on Power Rangers and Nerf guns, putting his focus and attention to furthering his meaningful hobbies. You encourage that, not dismiss him. Time and time again, it's just remarkable to me how socially inept the lot of you are. When your child comes up to you and exclaims "Daddy, Daddy! Look what I've done!", you sure as hell aren't going to say "Heh, yeah, I did that too, but I was younger."

mhurron 14y ago
We're not these children's daddies though, are we? Did you run up to every adult expecting praise? Did they give it to you? This is a group of, by and large, professionals. They are going to look at it in a critical light. If you want critical feedback, this is the forum to show it to. If you want coddling and nothing but positive reinforcement, stick with your parents, teachers and friends.
- ckrailo 14y ago
  Positive reinforcement and pleasant feedback are how people grow, not some type of angry neckbeard behavior. Everybody knows the professionals are superior, so we ought to kindly and gently nudge the newcomers to the same level of excellence.
  - scoot 14y ago
    How Not to Talk to Your Kids The inverse power of praise. (2007) http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/index4.html http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/index4.html
    - kyro 14y ago
      You know, I'd written a lengthy response to this, but there is absolutely no point. I'll say this: The type of praise we're pushing for here is of a very different type than the one in the article, and additionally, we're not raising one kid that's receiving and endless amount of "oh you're so smart!" We're saying that when a kid comes along, mentions their age and cares to show off something they've built, we should recognize their achievement, offer advice, and encourage them to move forward, not turn into a bunch of cynical assholes. The fact that you linked that article as a way to refute such a call for decency and kindness is so damn disingenuous. Take a second and think about what you're arguing against. It's not that radical of an idea, y'know, to foster their creativity, motivate them, give them a sense of accomplishment. Kids out there: Stay naive and optimistic and offer your help to people who want it, and never assume the worst in people. Searching for the Truth is good, but don't let it come in the way of you treating others nicely. Most of all, don't waste your time on HN.
      - scoot 14y ago
        Nothing like missing the point, and taking a comment out of context. Adults out there - read what it is you're responding to.
  - mhurron 14y ago
    First: Praise given always is meaningless. Second: Criticism is not always 'angry' Third: Consider dealing with the crass criticism as a life lesson. Fourth: Mindless praise is not going to help you grow Fifth: How you present something will often determine the type of response you get. You are going to leave kindergarten some day, the world isn't all gold stars. You are going to have to deal with people giving a critical analysis of what you're doing. That is what will make you better, not endless back-patting.
    - jtheory 14y ago
      There's a nasty illogic to this sequence, but I see it all the time. A. "The world isn't all gold stars" (a.k.a. "it's a dog-eat-dog world out there", or "there are a lot of hardasses out there", etc.), THEREFORE B. I'm personally not going to pull any punches for this naive/hopeful/idealistic/etc. young person. This isn't logic; it's a weak rationalization for being an asshole, because there's a certain pleasure to being an asshole and cutting others down to size. Is there really just a black/white choice between "crass criticism" and "mindless praise"? Of course not. What about this: filter whatever critique you have to offer down to what's useful to a 14 year old (or whatever they are), and present it with kindness.
      - niggler 14y ago
        I've seen the following happen way too often: from a young age, kids are told they are child prodigies and maintain top status in high school. Then they enter college and meet people who are more intelligent or proficient and can't seem to accept the reality of the situation. As an example, there was one section of organic chemistry for freshmen, and to get into that class you had to have a 5 in AP chem and pass two exams. I saw many of my classmates (Columbia) who were genuinely taken aback that they weren't the top of the freshman class -- and many of these self-styled rock stars never heard of the IChO! It is better for long term growth if kids are humbled at an earlier age than to be shocked much later in life. And holding back criticisms now really does a disservice later in life.
        jasonlotito 14y ago
- kevinconroy 14y ago
  That's incredibly short sighted of you. We should be encouraging the next generation to develop this skills in a supportive and constructive way. They're our future employees (and/or bosses).
- Xcelerate 14y ago
  > We're not these children's daddies though, are we? Did you run up to every adult expecting praise? Did they give it to you? Praise was actually very helpful to me growing up. If I didn't get it, I probably wouldn't have bothered with many of the things that now make my life so interesting and amazing. > This is a group of, by and large, professionals. They are going to look at it in a critical light. If you want critical feedback, this is the forum to show it to. If you want coddling and nothing but positive reinforcement, stick with your parents, teachers and friends. So much wrong with this. For one, this is a free online message board where anyone can post. Who cares if there are professionals here or not. Most 14 year olds do not have the same quantity of knowledge or acquired skills that people with more experience have. It's important to evaluate someone's work in an appropriate context. Not to mention the fact that many children are more sensitive to feedback and criticism than adults and negative comments can severely hurt their development / self-esteem.
- LambdaDriver 14y ago
  When did being a professional mean giving feedback from a critical slant? In my professional career I've found advice is taken best when it is: a. asked for b. fully encompassing both good and bad aspects If one can only see the bad in something then I'm not sure how much of a professional they are. There's a difference between coddling and giving balanced feedback.
- freshhawk 14y ago
  Good luck with that sentiment. Everyone assumes that there are already too many places online for professional peers to discuss/debate subjects related to their expertise. There are very few but that hardly matters. There is constant social pressure for outreach efforts, to be beginner friendly, to educate others. Partly because it's seen as more altruistic (a sentiment I understand but disagree with) and partly because professionals frequently have complete disdain for educators and feel they can do a good job of encouraging and educating beginners even though they have no experience or expertise in education.
biot 14y ago
And how is a response of "That's pretty good for a 14 year old" of any help? If the critique should not take into account the age of the creator, then why should the request for the critique mention it? Shouldn't everyone who shows initiative and a willingness to learn be encouraged through respectful and civil feedback, regardless of whether they're 14 or 40?
- slyv 14y ago
  I think it is the fact that they are "new" at this. For me, if they put "First App" instead of "I am 14" in the title, it would be the same thing. The point is to help encourage new, and usually young, people with programming and technology. The kid is probably just seeking more attention and praise by including the "I am 14 years old" in the header, but underneath, they are still looking for valid critique. I do not think a 14 year old should be given special privilege over a 40 year old. But, posting "I am 14 years old" is not a bad thing, but a sign of putting one's self out there.
  - BlackJack 14y ago
    I think a 14 year old should be given different privilege over a 40 year old. The 40 year old already has a life and a lifestyle, probably has kids, a job, and is fairly set in his ways (generalizing here). The 14 year old? - he's in high school and has the option of studying anything and becoming anything. That 14 year old might go to a hackathon next week, meet lots of kids/young adults like him, hack even more, study comp sci (or not), and become a terrific engineer who builds awesome stuff. Or maybe his hobby dies out and he becomes a doctor or a psychologist or something. Doesn't matter. The point is that the 14 year old is far more malleable than the 40 year old, and we can make a much bigger positive impact on younger kids than we can on 40 year olds. To the 14 year old, "First App" is probably synonymous with "I am 14." Give these kids a break.
- brudgers 14y ago
  Just like novelists, there probably aren't any great fourteen year old developers. Just some are are less bad than others. And some who have a higher ceiling when it comes to developing their talent. Any critic worth a listen can tailor their message to their audience. Some messages which make sense for a fourteen year old boy don't for a forty-four year man - e.g. "stay in school." Children are not miniature adults.
ceol 14y ago
Great post, but... Power Rangers and Nerf guns? At 14? You might be off by 4 or 5 years. ;) I'm not sure what about the programming/tech community fosters this culture of wanting to one-up someone who comes along with their work. It's even sadder when they try to one-up a child.

by kyro 14y ago

mhurron 14y ago

We're not these children's daddies though, are we? Did you run up to every adult expecting praise? Did they give it to you? This is a group of, by and large, professionals. They are going to look at it in a critical light. If you want critical feedback, this is the forum to show it to. If you want coddling and nothing but positive reinforcement, stick with your parents, teachers and friends.

ckrailo 14y ago
Positive reinforcement and pleasant feedback are how people grow, not some type of angry neckbeard behavior. Everybody knows the professionals are superior, so we ought to kindly and gently nudge the newcomers to the same level of excellence.
- scoot 14y ago
  How Not to Talk to Your Kids The inverse power of praise. (2007) http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/index4.html http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/index4.html
  - kyro 14y ago
    You know, I'd written a lengthy response to this, but there is absolutely no point. I'll say this: The type of praise we're pushing for here is of a very different type than the one in the article, and additionally, we're not raising one kid that's receiving and endless amount of "oh you're so smart!" We're saying that when a kid comes along, mentions their age and cares to show off something they've built, we should recognize their achievement, offer advice, and encourage them to move forward, not turn into a bunch of cynical assholes. The fact that you linked that article as a way to refute such a call for decency and kindness is so damn disingenuous. Take a second and think about what you're arguing against. It's not that radical of an idea, y'know, to foster their creativity, motivate them, give them a sense of accomplishment. Kids out there: Stay naive and optimistic and offer your help to people who want it, and never assume the worst in people. Searching for the Truth is good, but don't let it come in the way of you treating others nicely. Most of all, don't waste your time on HN.
    - scoot 14y ago
      Nothing like missing the point, and taking a comment out of context. Adults out there - read what it is you're responding to.
- mhurron 14y ago
  First: Praise given always is meaningless. Second: Criticism is not always 'angry' Third: Consider dealing with the crass criticism as a life lesson. Fourth: Mindless praise is not going to help you grow Fifth: How you present something will often determine the type of response you get. You are going to leave kindergarten some day, the world isn't all gold stars. You are going to have to deal with people giving a critical analysis of what you're doing. That is what will make you better, not endless back-patting.
  - jtheory 14y ago
    There's a nasty illogic to this sequence, but I see it all the time. A. "The world isn't all gold stars" (a.k.a. "it's a dog-eat-dog world out there", or "there are a lot of hardasses out there", etc.), THEREFORE B. I'm personally not going to pull any punches for this naive/hopeful/idealistic/etc. young person. This isn't logic; it's a weak rationalization for being an asshole, because there's a certain pleasure to being an asshole and cutting others down to size. Is there really just a black/white choice between "crass criticism" and "mindless praise"? Of course not. What about this: filter whatever critique you have to offer down to what's useful to a 14 year old (or whatever they are), and present it with kindness.
    - niggler 14y ago
      I've seen the following happen way too often: from a young age, kids are told they are child prodigies and maintain top status in high school. Then they enter college and meet people who are more intelligent or proficient and can't seem to accept the reality of the situation. As an example, there was one section of organic chemistry for freshmen, and to get into that class you had to have a 5 in AP chem and pass two exams. I saw many of my classmates (Columbia) who were genuinely taken aback that they weren't the top of the freshman class -- and many of these self-styled rock stars never heard of the IChO! It is better for long term growth if kids are humbled at an earlier age than to be shocked much later in life. And holding back criticisms now really does a disservice later in life.
      - jasonlotito 14y ago
kevinconroy 14y ago
That's incredibly short sighted of you. We should be encouraging the next generation to develop this skills in a supportive and constructive way. They're our future employees (and/or bosses).
Xcelerate 14y ago
> We're not these children's daddies though, are we? Did you run up to every adult expecting praise? Did they give it to you? Praise was actually very helpful to me growing up. If I didn't get it, I probably wouldn't have bothered with many of the things that now make my life so interesting and amazing. > This is a group of, by and large, professionals. They are going to look at it in a critical light. If you want critical feedback, this is the forum to show it to. If you want coddling and nothing but positive reinforcement, stick with your parents, teachers and friends. So much wrong with this. For one, this is a free online message board where anyone can post. Who cares if there are professionals here or not. Most 14 year olds do not have the same quantity of knowledge or acquired skills that people with more experience have. It's important to evaluate someone's work in an appropriate context. Not to mention the fact that many children are more sensitive to feedback and criticism than adults and negative comments can severely hurt their development / self-esteem.
LambdaDriver 14y ago
When did being a professional mean giving feedback from a critical slant? In my professional career I've found advice is taken best when it is: a. asked for b. fully encompassing both good and bad aspects If one can only see the bad in something then I'm not sure how much of a professional they are. There's a difference between coddling and giving balanced feedback.
freshhawk 14y ago
Good luck with that sentiment. Everyone assumes that there are already too many places online for professional peers to discuss/debate subjects related to their expertise. There are very few but that hardly matters. There is constant social pressure for outreach efforts, to be beginner friendly, to educate others. Partly because it's seen as more altruistic (a sentiment I understand but disagree with) and partly because professionals frequently have complete disdain for educators and feel they can do a good job of encouraging and educating beginners even though they have no experience or expertise in education.

biot 14y ago

And how is a response of "That's pretty good for a 14 year old" of any help? If the critique should not take into account the age of the creator, then why should the request for the critique mention it? Shouldn't everyone who shows initiative and a willingness to learn be encouraged through respectful and civil feedback, regardless of whether they're 14 or 40?

slyv 14y ago
I think it is the fact that they are "new" at this. For me, if they put "First App" instead of "I am 14" in the title, it would be the same thing. The point is to help encourage new, and usually young, people with programming and technology. The kid is probably just seeking more attention and praise by including the "I am 14 years old" in the header, but underneath, they are still looking for valid critique. I do not think a 14 year old should be given special privilege over a 40 year old. But, posting "I am 14 years old" is not a bad thing, but a sign of putting one's self out there.
- BlackJack 14y ago
  I think a 14 year old should be given different privilege over a 40 year old. The 40 year old already has a life and a lifestyle, probably has kids, a job, and is fairly set in his ways (generalizing here). The 14 year old? - he's in high school and has the option of studying anything and becoming anything. That 14 year old might go to a hackathon next week, meet lots of kids/young adults like him, hack even more, study comp sci (or not), and become a terrific engineer who builds awesome stuff. Or maybe his hobby dies out and he becomes a doctor or a psychologist or something. Doesn't matter. The point is that the 14 year old is far more malleable than the 40 year old, and we can make a much bigger positive impact on younger kids than we can on 40 year olds. To the 14 year old, "First App" is probably synonymous with "I am 14." Give these kids a break.
brudgers 14y ago
Just like novelists, there probably aren't any great fourteen year old developers. Just some are are less bad than others. And some who have a higher ceiling when it comes to developing their talent. Any critic worth a listen can tailor their message to their audience. Some messages which make sense for a fourteen year old boy don't for a forty-four year man - e.g. "stay in school." Children are not miniature adults.

ceol 14y ago

Great post, but... Power Rangers and Nerf guns? At 14? You might be off by 4 or 5 years. ;) I'm not sure what about the programming/tech community fosters this culture of wanting to one-up someone who comes along with their work. It's even sadder when they try to one-up a child.