22 ms·

Being Suicidal: What it feels like to want to kill yourself

151 points by roflc0ptic 14y ago

roflc0ptic 14y ago
"So there you have it. It’s really not a pretty picture. But, again, I do hope that if you ever are unfortunate enough to experience these cognitive dynamics in your own mind—and I, for one, very much have—or if you suspect you’re seeing behaviors in others that indicate these thought patterns may be occurring, that this information helps you to meta-cognitively puncture suicidal ideation." I tend to think there's not a lot of value in talking publicly about suicide due to the Werther effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide), and I know that for my own part reading about suicide tends to reinvigorate some pretty unfortunate cognitive patterns. But since we're already on the subject, I share this article. Bering articulates very well the experience of wanting to do yourself in. For folks who don't experience it, this might help you understand. For folks who do, maybe understanding it better will help you get past it. Don't let your depression win.
- mindcrime 14y ago
  I tend to think there's not a lot of value in talking publicly about suicide due to the Werther effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide), and I know that for my own part reading about suicide tends to reinvigorate some pretty unfortunate cognitive patterns. This x 1000. Personally I would love to and end to the recent deluge of articles touching on / talking about suicide. Awareness of the issues surrounding the aaronsw case are important, yes, but too much suicide talk is not healthy, IMO.
- rdtsc 14y ago
  > Werther effect That is screwed up. Reading these comments and Aaron's death is pretty hard. I hope it really helps some by having a place to share and discuss but just reading and thinking about _it_ is dangerous. Can't explain it, it is messing me with head too.
  - roflc0ptic 14y ago
    Reading this thread after it's run its course, I'm not sure there was any value to posting it. I'm not sure that there wasn't, either. Suicidal ideation is awful, and I'm so glad to finally be in a place where I'm free from it. I hope you get there.
- lilsunnybee 14y ago
  It wouldn't be that way for most people. Most people are just trying to understand and find a way to help, and don't get triggered easily by stuff like this. Even if you've had suicide attempts and ongoing depression, it is something you can get past. It all depends on where you are in your life. If its triggering for you, avoid it for your own mental health. But others still might want to discuss, analyze and come to terms.
  - roflc0ptic 14y ago
    Thanks. I'm the one who posted it, and I was hoping it would help others to come to terms. I'm in a much better place than I once was. I'm not sure at all that this thread was the right thing to do.
baddox 14y ago
> In considering people’s motivations for killing themselves, it is essential to recognize that most suicides are driven by a flash flood of strong emotions, not rational, philosophical thoughts in which the pros and cons are evaluated critically. That sounds very likely to me, but given my utter inexperience with suicidal thoughts or acquaintances, I'm wondering if there is any proper evidence corroborating it. What percentage of suicides are evaluated critically? Obviously, "evaluated critically" is difficult to define, let alone measure, but I'd like to see any studies done in this area.
- alanctgardner2 14y ago
  There are a few pieces of evidence that suggest long-term depression can impact neurogenesis, which could lead to altered cognition. I don't know if that's a prevalent theory, and as the author points out, it doesn't explain non-depressive suicides. I can, however, answer this anecdote with another anecdote. I've been dealing with suicidal thoughts for about 5 years, and at some points some very limited self-harm. On an earlier post, I detailed what I thought was my most frightening, closest-to-suicide moment. > The scariest, closest to suicide moment I ever experienced was when I was shopping at a mall. It wasn't very busy, and I was feeling very... manic might be the word. Head down, headphones in, speed walking between errands. I had to keep moving, no matter what. I noticed the sort-of cut-away in the floor, so you could see from the top floor down to the ground. It was only 3 stories, but I had a really strong, sudden impulse to vault over the railing and see what it would do to me. Maybe I could land on my head, that might work. It was something I had never really considered before, it wasn't a very efficient way to do things, but it just gripped me very suddenly and all of a sudden it was a huge crisis. Being suicidal, generally, is death by a thousand cuts. You have a predisposition, and all the stresses in life push you in that direction (as you've said). But the jumping off the ledge moment is crucial; personally, I have strategies for daily temptations like putting away knives in the kitchen. It's the spur of something unexpected, the sudden, strong, irrational impulse that really scares me.
  - ghc 14y ago
    Aren't impulses like that relatively common? I can recall hundreds of times where I felt a sudden impulse like that since about the age of 10, all triggered by finding myself in a situation where something not normally dangerous presented a very real possibility of death. I always figured my brain was using that impulse to viscerally play out the consequences in my head so as to scare the living daylights out of me (e.g. when first getting used to traveling by subway having a sudden strong impulse to jump into the subway tracks, making me keep well away from the edge of the platform). I always thought the difference between a suicidal person and a normal person was that a normal person would have those thoughts, but they would inspire great fear, where as a suicidal person would experience those thoughts and not experience the corresponding revulsion.
HNLogInShit 14y ago
"perhaps an irrecoverable self from a happier past" This bums me out.
darius42 14y ago
Speaking as someone who has been suicidal, I think that that article is a lot of hot air. This is what it felt like to be suicidal: Imagine the worst heartbreak you have ever felt, and multiply this by ten. Imagine the worst anxiety you have ever suffered and multiply this by ten. Imagine that every second feels like a minute, in each of those minute-long-seconds, you feel like a lion is just about to jump out from around the corner and rip you apart slowly. Imagine that everything you used to enjoy is meaningless and nothing at all is fun or enjoyable. Imagine that both your parents just died in a horrible car crash right after disinheriting you because they felt you were a terrible disgrace. Imagine that you constantly obsess on what it was you did so wrong, and what you might have done differently. Imagine repeatedly reliving every word you can remember saying to them with a terrible and critical eye, and repeating to yourself every harsh word they ever said to you. Imagine that you can't think of anything else at all no matter how hard you try, and these obsessive thoughts just spin in your head over and over and over and over and over and over again with no relief. Imagine that all these feelings just go on and on and on and on and on and on, for hours, days, weeks, months, with no relief. Unrelenting torment and misery with no escape, no out, no one who can understand you, no one who can calm you, no one who can make anything the slightest bit better. Imagine that the only reason that you didn't kill yourself in order to end this interminable torment is because you figured you'd fuck even that up and just end up a quadriplegic, and then be truly screwed, since you'd never be able to end your eternal misery then.
- Swizec 14y ago
  I can confirm this. Those days when I would just sit in the corner of my room staring at a blank wall for ... the whole day ... not fun. PS: I eventually got better and have remained such for years
  - roflc0ptic 14y ago
    I've also experienced this. I'd curl up on the shower floor and sit until I couldn't stand the now-cold water coming out of the shower head. I spent consecutive days close to catatonia, dragging myself into work, shutting the door, coming out eight hours later. I don't think this fact has a lot of bearing on this article, though. I feel like these criticisms are just an unfortunate manifestation of HN's tendancy to be contrarian. They're not effective rebuttals; they're just "Wait, I have feelings, too!" Furthermore, being sad/depressed/suicidal really shouldn't be a contest, and the way I experience isn't necessarily going to be the same as the way you experience it. This article articulates a lot of my own experience. I'm sorry/glad that it doesn't match your experience.
dbbolton 14y ago
>“The delusion consisted of the patient’s absolute conviction she was already dead and waiting to be buried, that she had no teeth or hair, and that her uterus was malformed.” How did the researchers know this? Did the patient somehow believe she was dead but that she was still able to speak with the living?
- roflc0ptic 14y ago
  I think there's a really tasteless joke to be made here about looking the study up on JSTOR. Anyways: Abstract from scientists who published that study: > Cotard's syndrome is a psychotic condition that includes delusion of a supernatural nature. Based on insights from recovered patients who were convinced of being immortal, we can (1) distinguish biographical experiences from cultural and evolutionary backgrounds; (2) show that cultural significance dominates biographical experiences; and (3) support Bering's view of a cognitive system dedicated to forming illusory representations of immortality. http://philpapers.org/rec/COHPOS http://philpapers.org/rec/COHPOS
cmod 14y ago
The absolute best evocation I've yet found (and most beautifully written) on the feelings of depression is Darkness Visible by William Styron. [0] What he describes may not be accurate for all instances of depression, but he certainly hits the nail on the head for many. [0] http://www.amazon.com/Darkness-Visible-Madness-William-Styron/dp/0679736395 http://www.amazon.com/Darkness-Visible-Madness-William-Styro...
gesman 14y ago
Article describes classes of thoughts that causes suicidal tendencies. Which is good recreational read but practically useless. Then article self-derails in disfunctional, impractical advises (for the lack of having anything better), such as: "this information helps you to meta-cognitively puncture suicidal ideation" or: "scientific knowledge changes perspective. And perspective changes everything". This works all great in theory but absolutely fails in real life with real people. It reality it's the deep and sharp inner pain that causes people to be driven to suicide. In suicide prevention - the cause of pain absolutely does not matter. What matters - is to teach people to transcend that inner pain. People only know how to suppress, express, or escape pain. Mostly via distractions, entertainment, chemicals and sex. Suicide is an ultimate act of taking the strongest pain killer. When other painkillers no longer works - and pain grows too sharp, and person does not know anything better - that seems to be the best way out. The ultimate suicide guidance teaches people how, instead of running away from inner emotional and physical pain, turn toward it, observe, see it for what it really is and let it dissolve in irreversible manner. When person transcends pain in this way - by facing it, observing it, feeling it - not only it causes the pain itself to dissolve - the situation or painful past that caused the pain to be in the first place - fails to re-ignite and fails to cause pain any longer. That's it the ultimate healing direction. That's the real way up from puny, harmless "positivive thinking" toward any thinking. When any thought, any memory, any recollection, no matter how "negative" fails to cause you to feel inner pain.
- saraid216 14y ago
  The floggings will continue until morale improves.
orionblastar 14y ago
I have attempted suicide 13 times, and decided I would not go for a 14th time. This article is not accurate. When you are suicidal it is very hard to explain. You are miserable and in a lot of pain, you have negative racing thoughts about how terrible you are and what a horrible person you are etc and that the world would be better off without you, and you never really fit in, people just took advantage of you and abused and bullied you so you don't feel like you are connected to this world anymore, that the only way to end your suffering is to kill yourself. Logic, reason, and anything else no longer works for you, you can't think straight anymore and any thought just hurts you like a hot knife slicing into your brain. Every bad moment in your life plays out in your head, and each one just kills you inside a bit. You cannot even remember the good moments, you cannot recall that you have friends and family members who love you. You feel like nobody cares about you and everyone hates you and wants you to die. I really don't know how I got out of it, except my attempts failed because I didn't do massive things like gunshot to the head or whatever, I did things that could be undone like overdose, etc. It was the only control I had at the time to survive, pick my way to die, and pick one that others can undo when they find me. I got so sick working, that I developed schizoaffective disorder from the stress, and workplace bullies who abused me daily. I was a top-notch programmer, but now I am on disability trying to get my act together. Not being surrounded by sociopaths is helping me to heal up.
- DigitalTurk 14y ago
  Orion Blaster! I don't want to reveal my K5 nick but I'm happy you're still around. :)
  - orionblastar 14y ago
    Thanks you must be one of the few K5 users who like me alive. Most told me to "kill yourself" when I posted a diary. I think it started a K5 trend to post "kill yourself" after a Blastar-like diary. I am learning how to program all over again. I started with ANSI C and GCC and worked up to C++ with G++ in Unbuntu. Just small programs I'll move on to bigger stuff later. Just hope I don't end up like MDC, I hear he's been 5150'ed again in California.
hudell 14y ago
I've tried to kill myself twice when I was a teenage. It was really silly. The first time I was in my bed, trying to sleep, when I tought : "Why don't I kill myself?" I don't remember what kind of problems I had at the time. I was 15 and that was the best year of my life up to that point (ages 10 to 14 really sucked and I would understand if it had happened at that time). I didn't do anything special, just covered my head with my pillow cover. After a few seconds I realised that wouldn't work, dropped it and went on to sleep. I don't remember when or how the second time happened, all I remember is that I tried a second time that same year. Many times I caught myself thinking about using gas to end it all, but I would not do anything that would cause trouble to my family (even though I had no reason to like them at the time). A few years later, I got really depressed after a party and, on my way home, I stopped in a bridge, looking to the river and thinking. I knew I would never have the courage to jump, but I stood there. Then, from the other side of the bridge, came an old crazy friend, he was really drunk and hugged me real hard, leaving me with the stench of cachaça (brazilian rum). He kept going and I went home. I never had any suicidal thought after that. On contrary, sometimes I feel that I now am "immune" to that kind of thing. Even if I feel depressed, it all goes away after a good night sleep. And I even became a person that is really good at talking to people with suicidal thoughts. I'm 24 now and, in the last five years, I've had a few friends come to me saying they were thinking about killing themselves and I somehow made them feel better. I think that the most important thing when talking to people about this is: never say "don't to it". I usually say: "it's up to you, but.. have you considered this and that?" If you just tell them no to do it, they will ignore you, because they will think you don't understand their problems. And they are probably right about that.
- hudell 14y ago
  Just to be clear: neither I nor any of these friends I talked about had real cases of depression, we would just feel depressed sometimes and it would sometimes makes us think our life wasn't worth it or something like that.
- juanbyrge 14y ago
  You've never had real depression or suicidal thoughts. Consider yourself lucky.
codex 14y ago
In my opinion, suicide is an evolutionary trait design to unburden the group when the self is no longer felt to be of any worth; e.g. contributing positively. If this were true, then placing the suicidal individual in a completely different environment; one in which they might be more successful, might be therapeutic. For example, relocated to another country with a foster family. More easily said than done.
- graue 14y ago
  There is a problem with this theory: it hypothesizes a benefit to a group, but no benefit to the individual who commits suicide. Individuals who do not have the gene(s) that predispose toward committing suicide would therefore be more fit than individuals who do, and these gene(s) would never become widespread. I believe this was one of the main points of Dawkins' The Selfish Gene: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene
  - Alex3917 14y ago
    "It hypothesizes a benefit to a group, but no benefit to the individual who commits suicide" If you know you can't pass on your own genes, then the next best thing is to pass on the genes of your family or close relatives. Committing suicide may (or may not) make that more likely. I don't think there is necessarily an evolutionary reason for suicide, but it certainly seems to fit within an evolutionary framework.
  - im3w1l 14y ago
    Well if you sacrifice to save a group that also has the gene (e.g. extended family / tribe) it would work out.
    - pjscott 14y ago
      Damn it, you can't just say that; there is math involved! On the one hand, you have the evolutionary cost to yourself: if you die, then you can't have any more children. On the other hand, you have the evolutionary benefit to your close kin: they have access to more resources with you gone. This benefit is weighted by how closely these other people are related to you. A rule of thumb is that you break even if you sacrifice your life to save the life of two siblings, four nephews/nieces, or eight cousins. Do you really expect that a get-depressed-and-die instinct would reliably result in at least that much benefit to someone's close kin? If not, then you don't really expect such an instinct to evolve by kin selection.
xijuan 14y ago
I am glad that people here are very understanding and very open about what they have experienced. I think I have been there. I don't know how bad my situation was comparing to some of them described in the comments. I have fought hard to get myself back up. I remember I tried so hard to seek help. Reflecting back, I think I really just wanted a peace of mind knowing that I will get better if I could see a doctor. What horrified me was not what I had to go through. What horrified me is how some people start to treat me afterwards. They would treat me as a mental patient; they would think I am dangerous and crazy.. They also think I probably would be able to achieve anything in life anymore. I feel so sad about this. I have never been treated like this.
Evbn 14y ago
This discussion should have a professional hot line number attached. Real people could get really hurt venturing into this area. 1-800-273-8255
richardlblair 14y ago
I think this article is great, but what is better is the discussion in the comments. From what I've seen we have supportive people who are curious, and people that have had darker days. if you came here looking for something yourself, some glimpse of hope, just read the comments. Many people here suffered, and they found a way through it. You can too. Hang in there, you will get through it. Just keep fighting. Its worth it
jjb123 14y ago
As someone that has had a sibling take her own life, and another that has had suicidal thoughts frequently, this article was extremely helpful in seeing the cognitive layers beyond the emotional layers. Pretty eye-opening. I wonder if the cognitive destruction would prevent a person from even realizing they're experiencing cognitive destruction (eg, after reading an article like this)?
- saraid216 14y ago
  It doesn't necessarily; I think that varies wildly depending on the person. I'm a highly analytical person, for instance, and I immediately recognized each layer in myself. I'd be willing to bet, however, that there are plenty of people who'd read each item and deny their existence while experiencing each perfectly. I find myself unable to actually imagine this, but eh.
stmartin 14y ago
What a stupid article... Intellectualizing suicide - how much stupider can it get?
mcphilip 14y ago
For those interested in philosophy, Albert Camus famously said "There is only one really serious philosophical problem and that is suicide" [1]. Basically Camus asked the question why shouldn't he commit suicide and then worked on finding a philosophy that gave him reason not to. This comment may have no practical use to someone feeling suicidal, but those interested in a philosophical discussion of suicide should consider reading some of Camus' work. [1]http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/camus http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/camus
- saraid216 14y ago
  I would actually also suggest Montaigne. I found this a wonderful help to me in thinking about how to face life: http://www.amazon.com/How-Live-Montaigne-Question-Attempts/dp/1590514831 http://www.amazon.com/How-Live-Montaigne-Question-Attempts/d...
- pekk 14y ago
  If you are in a position to work for years on a philosophy to give you a reason not to commit suicide, then probably you are not really in the kind of position from which people normally commit suicide. Existentialism is a hobby and a thing to talk about, not a tested therapy for major clinical depression.
  - saraid216 14y ago
    GP didn't say otherwise.
chookrl 14y ago
There are a lot of extreme sports that could look like people are literally trying to get themselves killed.
lhnz 14y ago
I think it has a different feeling for lots of different people and that the feeling can change. Sometimes it is the physical feeling of nausea and of cold water running through your veins. Other times you shake with anxiety and your thoughts do not stay still. You wonder if you will be crazy permanently as it stunts your abilities, and begin to count 1..2..3..4..5..6..7..in order to keep your mind..8..9..10..connected to that one thought you were trying to have. Or perhaps you feel everything has gone wrong and you recall how you tried to improve everything and what little effect you had; and you tell yourself off for your inadequacies and tell yourself that you must try harder next time. But you feel like it's hopeless: you did your best before and cannot see what you could do better. So you begin to cry and then start to laugh from the bitter-sweet realisation that you have given it everything. You ask yourself whether there's somebody to talk to about all of this, but the counsellors didn't work, your family have their own troubles, and your friends always cut you off at any sign you need their care. Why should you receive help anyway: nothing you are experiencing is out of the realms of normal human experience. You live a good life. Sometimes you run across the road and, as you run, a car narrowly misses you. "I'm not ready to die yet!" you joke, yet your mind counters "Who am I kidding?" So next time you walk slower, imagining the vehicle slam into you. Or you imagine throwing yourself off the buildings you're walking past, or walking into the bar and starting a fight with the most threatening looking thug so you could either win over something you hate or die violently. Sometimes people wonder where your new-found courage has come from: why you're not worried about failing anymore. The horrible truth, it was the best take-away from the worst thought: you want to win or be ripped apart. Other days you think of the positive mental attitude you have tried to grow, the self-help books you have read, the people you have given your love to, and the pressure that you are putting yourself under to try and come out of this and you just wonder how it has been months since I felt pleasure. A thought enters your mind: another 10 years for everybody's benefit but mine. Do I deserve this? Is being able to will myself to continue all there should be [0]. [0] http://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/hell/camus.html http://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/hell/camus.html
TempAccount767 14y ago
I tried to do it once. It's a really terrible place to be in. I tried to take a knife to my wrists but failed, then ate all the drugs I had on my shelf. Knocked myself out, and woke up in my own vomit with very sore wrists, not a cent to my name and all my credit cards maxed out from online gambling. The lowest point of my life. There was a build up leading up to that point, I had previously fantasized and romanticized about it. For me being suicidal was like being down an inescapable black hole. Managing depression was similar. When hard times hit, it's all too easy to let your mind slip down this black hole and start feeling suicidal and depressed, I have to fight to not go to that place mentally. But when you're feeling low and you can feel yourself slipping into this black hole it's very tempting to allow yourself to fall right in. For me also being suicidal was a deeply visceral experience, and also an experience of high perceived clarity. Mentally I felt very clear and focused. It was also a time of uncontrollable and intense emotion. I felt deeply emotional about life and humanity in general, with small moments of shame. It was also a time of high desperation, and a place I could see no escape from. It was a very strong cocktail of negative emotions which are hard enough to deal with individually. Life as it appeared around me I perceived as meaningless and vacuous. The path of least resistance to get through each day was cynicism. Sometimes when I watch the TV or news I had uncontrollable surges of very intense empathy which would cause me to cry. It's very hard to articulate exactly how low and desperate I felt. Fortunately for me my family were always there for me, and now I feel I am better. Even though at times I did not recognise they were there for me, they were and they were acting on it. Eventually I started to recognise it and very slowly I started to make things better. I really don't think there was any other way for me to escape it all except with the help of my family. I dread to think what would of become of me if I didn't have that support network. I feel if I did not have that support network, I do not think I would have escaped alive. For suicidal people in worse position than I was I do not know how you would go about helping them.

151 points by roflc0ptic 14y ago

"So there you have it. It’s really not a pretty picture. But, again, I do hope that if you ever are unfortunate enough to experience these cognitive dynamics in your own mind—and I, for one, very much have—or if you suspect you’re seeing behaviors in others that indicate these thought patterns may be occurring, that this information helps you to meta-cognitively puncture suicidal ideation." I tend to think there's not a lot of value in talking publicly about suicide due to the Werther effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide), and I know that for my own part reading about suicide tends to reinvigorate some pretty unfortunate cognitive patterns. But since we're already on the subject, I share this article. Bering articulates very well the experience of wanting to do yourself in. For folks who don't experience it, this might help you understand. For folks who do, maybe understanding it better will help you get past it. Don't let your depression win.

mindcrime 14y ago
I tend to think there's not a lot of value in talking publicly about suicide due to the Werther effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide), and I know that for my own part reading about suicide tends to reinvigorate some pretty unfortunate cognitive patterns. This x 1000. Personally I would love to and end to the recent deluge of articles touching on / talking about suicide. Awareness of the issues surrounding the aaronsw case are important, yes, but too much suicide talk is not healthy, IMO.
rdtsc 14y ago
> Werther effect That is screwed up. Reading these comments and Aaron's death is pretty hard. I hope it really helps some by having a place to share and discuss but just reading and thinking about _it_ is dangerous. Can't explain it, it is messing me with head too.
- roflc0ptic 14y ago
  Reading this thread after it's run its course, I'm not sure there was any value to posting it. I'm not sure that there wasn't, either. Suicidal ideation is awful, and I'm so glad to finally be in a place where I'm free from it. I hope you get there.
lilsunnybee 14y ago
It wouldn't be that way for most people. Most people are just trying to understand and find a way to help, and don't get triggered easily by stuff like this. Even if you've had suicide attempts and ongoing depression, it is something you can get past. It all depends on where you are in your life. If its triggering for you, avoid it for your own mental health. But others still might want to discuss, analyze and come to terms.
- roflc0ptic 14y ago
  Thanks. I'm the one who posted it, and I was hoping it would help others to come to terms. I'm in a much better place than I once was. I'm not sure at all that this thread was the right thing to do.

baddox 14y ago

> In considering people’s motivations for killing themselves, it is essential to recognize that most suicides are driven by a flash flood of strong emotions, not rational, philosophical thoughts in which the pros and cons are evaluated critically. That sounds very likely to me, but given my utter inexperience with suicidal thoughts or acquaintances, I'm wondering if there is any proper evidence corroborating it. What percentage of suicides are evaluated critically? Obviously, "evaluated critically" is difficult to define, let alone measure, but I'd like to see any studies done in this area.

alanctgardner2 14y ago
There are a few pieces of evidence that suggest long-term depression can impact neurogenesis, which could lead to altered cognition. I don't know if that's a prevalent theory, and as the author points out, it doesn't explain non-depressive suicides. I can, however, answer this anecdote with another anecdote. I've been dealing with suicidal thoughts for about 5 years, and at some points some very limited self-harm. On an earlier post, I detailed what I thought was my most frightening, closest-to-suicide moment. > The scariest, closest to suicide moment I ever experienced was when I was shopping at a mall. It wasn't very busy, and I was feeling very... manic might be the word. Head down, headphones in, speed walking between errands. I had to keep moving, no matter what. I noticed the sort-of cut-away in the floor, so you could see from the top floor down to the ground. It was only 3 stories, but I had a really strong, sudden impulse to vault over the railing and see what it would do to me. Maybe I could land on my head, that might work. It was something I had never really considered before, it wasn't a very efficient way to do things, but it just gripped me very suddenly and all of a sudden it was a huge crisis. Being suicidal, generally, is death by a thousand cuts. You have a predisposition, and all the stresses in life push you in that direction (as you've said). But the jumping off the ledge moment is crucial; personally, I have strategies for daily temptations like putting away knives in the kitchen. It's the spur of something unexpected, the sudden, strong, irrational impulse that really scares me.
- ghc 14y ago
  Aren't impulses like that relatively common? I can recall hundreds of times where I felt a sudden impulse like that since about the age of 10, all triggered by finding myself in a situation where something not normally dangerous presented a very real possibility of death. I always figured my brain was using that impulse to viscerally play out the consequences in my head so as to scare the living daylights out of me (e.g. when first getting used to traveling by subway having a sudden strong impulse to jump into the subway tracks, making me keep well away from the edge of the platform). I always thought the difference between a suicidal person and a normal person was that a normal person would have those thoughts, but they would inspire great fear, where as a suicidal person would experience those thoughts and not experience the corresponding revulsion.

HNLogInShit 14y ago

"perhaps an irrecoverable self from a happier past" This bums me out.

darius42 14y ago

Speaking as someone who has been suicidal, I think that that article is a lot of hot air. This is what it felt like to be suicidal: Imagine the worst heartbreak you have ever felt, and multiply this by ten. Imagine the worst anxiety you have ever suffered and multiply this by ten. Imagine that every second feels like a minute, in each of those minute-long-seconds, you feel like a lion is just about to jump out from around the corner and rip you apart slowly. Imagine that everything you used to enjoy is meaningless and nothing at all is fun or enjoyable. Imagine that both your parents just died in a horrible car crash right after disinheriting you because they felt you were a terrible disgrace. Imagine that you constantly obsess on what it was you did so wrong, and what you might have done differently. Imagine repeatedly reliving every word you can remember saying to them with a terrible and critical eye, and repeating to yourself every harsh word they ever said to you. Imagine that you can't think of anything else at all no matter how hard you try, and these obsessive thoughts just spin in your head over and over and over and over and over and over again with no relief. Imagine that all these feelings just go on and on and on and on and on and on, for hours, days, weeks, months, with no relief. Unrelenting torment and misery with no escape, no out, no one who can understand you, no one who can calm you, no one who can make anything the slightest bit better. Imagine that the only reason that you didn't kill yourself in order to end this interminable torment is because you figured you'd fuck even that up and just end up a quadriplegic, and then be truly screwed, since you'd never be able to end your eternal misery then.

Swizec 14y ago
I can confirm this. Those days when I would just sit in the corner of my room staring at a blank wall for ... the whole day ... not fun. PS: I eventually got better and have remained such for years
- roflc0ptic 14y ago
  I've also experienced this. I'd curl up on the shower floor and sit until I couldn't stand the now-cold water coming out of the shower head. I spent consecutive days close to catatonia, dragging myself into work, shutting the door, coming out eight hours later. I don't think this fact has a lot of bearing on this article, though. I feel like these criticisms are just an unfortunate manifestation of HN's tendancy to be contrarian. They're not effective rebuttals; they're just "Wait, I have feelings, too!" Furthermore, being sad/depressed/suicidal really shouldn't be a contest, and the way I experience isn't necessarily going to be the same as the way you experience it. This article articulates a lot of my own experience. I'm sorry/glad that it doesn't match your experience.

dbbolton 14y ago

>“The delusion consisted of the patient’s absolute conviction she was already dead and waiting to be buried, that she had no teeth or hair, and that her uterus was malformed.” How did the researchers know this? Did the patient somehow believe she was dead but that she was still able to speak with the living?

roflc0ptic 14y ago
I think there's a really tasteless joke to be made here about looking the study up on JSTOR. Anyways: Abstract from scientists who published that study: > Cotard's syndrome is a psychotic condition that includes delusion of a supernatural nature. Based on insights from recovered patients who were convinced of being immortal, we can (1) distinguish biographical experiences from cultural and evolutionary backgrounds; (2) show that cultural significance dominates biographical experiences; and (3) support Bering's view of a cognitive system dedicated to forming illusory representations of immortality. http://philpapers.org/rec/COHPOS http://philpapers.org/rec/COHPOS

cmod 14y ago

The absolute best evocation I've yet found (and most beautifully written) on the feelings of depression is Darkness Visible by William Styron. [0] What he describes may not be accurate for all instances of depression, but he certainly hits the nail on the head for many. [0] http://www.amazon.com/Darkness-Visible-Madness-William-Styron/dp/0679736395 http://www.amazon.com/Darkness-Visible-Madness-William-Styro...

gesman 14y ago

Article describes classes of thoughts that causes suicidal tendencies. Which is good recreational read but practically useless. Then article self-derails in disfunctional, impractical advises (for the lack of having anything better), such as: "this information helps you to meta-cognitively puncture suicidal ideation" or: "scientific knowledge changes perspective. And perspective changes everything". This works all great in theory but absolutely fails in real life with real people. It reality it's the deep and sharp inner pain that causes people to be driven to suicide. In suicide prevention - the cause of pain absolutely does not matter. What matters - is to teach people to transcend that inner pain. People only know how to suppress, express, or escape pain. Mostly via distractions, entertainment, chemicals and sex. Suicide is an ultimate act of taking the strongest pain killer. When other painkillers no longer works - and pain grows too sharp, and person does not know anything better - that seems to be the best way out. The ultimate suicide guidance teaches people how, instead of running away from inner emotional and physical pain, turn toward it, observe, see it for what it really is and let it dissolve in irreversible manner. When person transcends pain in this way - by facing it, observing it, feeling it - not only it causes the pain itself to dissolve - the situation or painful past that caused the pain to be in the first place - fails to re-ignite and fails to cause pain any longer. That's it the ultimate healing direction. That's the real way up from puny, harmless "positivive thinking" toward any thinking. When any thought, any memory, any recollection, no matter how "negative" fails to cause you to feel inner pain.

saraid216 14y ago
The floggings will continue until morale improves.

orionblastar 14y ago

I have attempted suicide 13 times, and decided I would not go for a 14th time. This article is not accurate. When you are suicidal it is very hard to explain. You are miserable and in a lot of pain, you have negative racing thoughts about how terrible you are and what a horrible person you are etc and that the world would be better off without you, and you never really fit in, people just took advantage of you and abused and bullied you so you don't feel like you are connected to this world anymore, that the only way to end your suffering is to kill yourself. Logic, reason, and anything else no longer works for you, you can't think straight anymore and any thought just hurts you like a hot knife slicing into your brain. Every bad moment in your life plays out in your head, and each one just kills you inside a bit. You cannot even remember the good moments, you cannot recall that you have friends and family members who love you. You feel like nobody cares about you and everyone hates you and wants you to die. I really don't know how I got out of it, except my attempts failed because I didn't do massive things like gunshot to the head or whatever, I did things that could be undone like overdose, etc. It was the only control I had at the time to survive, pick my way to die, and pick one that others can undo when they find me. I got so sick working, that I developed schizoaffective disorder from the stress, and workplace bullies who abused me daily. I was a top-notch programmer, but now I am on disability trying to get my act together. Not being surrounded by sociopaths is helping me to heal up.

DigitalTurk 14y ago
Orion Blaster! I don't want to reveal my K5 nick but I'm happy you're still around. :)
- orionblastar 14y ago
  Thanks you must be one of the few K5 users who like me alive. Most told me to "kill yourself" when I posted a diary. I think it started a K5 trend to post "kill yourself" after a Blastar-like diary. I am learning how to program all over again. I started with ANSI C and GCC and worked up to C++ with G++ in Unbuntu. Just small programs I'll move on to bigger stuff later. Just hope I don't end up like MDC, I hear he's been 5150'ed again in California.

hudell 14y ago

I've tried to kill myself twice when I was a teenage. It was really silly. The first time I was in my bed, trying to sleep, when I tought : "Why don't I kill myself?" I don't remember what kind of problems I had at the time. I was 15 and that was the best year of my life up to that point (ages 10 to 14 really sucked and I would understand if it had happened at that time). I didn't do anything special, just covered my head with my pillow cover. After a few seconds I realised that wouldn't work, dropped it and went on to sleep. I don't remember when or how the second time happened, all I remember is that I tried a second time that same year. Many times I caught myself thinking about using gas to end it all, but I would not do anything that would cause trouble to my family (even though I had no reason to like them at the time). A few years later, I got really depressed after a party and, on my way home, I stopped in a bridge, looking to the river and thinking. I knew I would never have the courage to jump, but I stood there. Then, from the other side of the bridge, came an old crazy friend, he was really drunk and hugged me real hard, leaving me with the stench of cachaça (brazilian rum). He kept going and I went home. I never had any suicidal thought after that. On contrary, sometimes I feel that I now am "immune" to that kind of thing. Even if I feel depressed, it all goes away after a good night sleep. And I even became a person that is really good at talking to people with suicidal thoughts. I'm 24 now and, in the last five years, I've had a few friends come to me saying they were thinking about killing themselves and I somehow made them feel better. I think that the most important thing when talking to people about this is: never say "don't to it". I usually say: "it's up to you, but.. have you considered this and that?" If you just tell them no to do it, they will ignore you, because they will think you don't understand their problems. And they are probably right about that.

hudell 14y ago
Just to be clear: neither I nor any of these friends I talked about had real cases of depression, we would just feel depressed sometimes and it would sometimes makes us think our life wasn't worth it or something like that.
juanbyrge 14y ago
You've never had real depression or suicidal thoughts. Consider yourself lucky.

codex 14y ago

In my opinion, suicide is an evolutionary trait design to unburden the group when the self is no longer felt to be of any worth; e.g. contributing positively. If this were true, then placing the suicidal individual in a completely different environment; one in which they might be more successful, might be therapeutic. For example, relocated to another country with a foster family. More easily said than done.

graue 14y ago
There is a problem with this theory: it hypothesizes a benefit to a group, but no benefit to the individual who commits suicide. Individuals who do not have the gene(s) that predispose toward committing suicide would therefore be more fit than individuals who do, and these gene(s) would never become widespread. I believe this was one of the main points of Dawkins' The Selfish Gene: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene
- Alex3917 14y ago
  "It hypothesizes a benefit to a group, but no benefit to the individual who commits suicide" If you know you can't pass on your own genes, then the next best thing is to pass on the genes of your family or close relatives. Committing suicide may (or may not) make that more likely. I don't think there is necessarily an evolutionary reason for suicide, but it certainly seems to fit within an evolutionary framework.
- im3w1l 14y ago
  Well if you sacrifice to save a group that also has the gene (e.g. extended family / tribe) it would work out.
  - pjscott 14y ago
    Damn it, you can't just say that; there is math involved! On the one hand, you have the evolutionary cost to yourself: if you die, then you can't have any more children. On the other hand, you have the evolutionary benefit to your close kin: they have access to more resources with you gone. This benefit is weighted by how closely these other people are related to you. A rule of thumb is that you break even if you sacrifice your life to save the life of two siblings, four nephews/nieces, or eight cousins. Do you really expect that a get-depressed-and-die instinct would reliably result in at least that much benefit to someone's close kin? If not, then you don't really expect such an instinct to evolve by kin selection.

xijuan 14y ago

I am glad that people here are very understanding and very open about what they have experienced. I think I have been there. I don't know how bad my situation was comparing to some of them described in the comments. I have fought hard to get myself back up. I remember I tried so hard to seek help. Reflecting back, I think I really just wanted a peace of mind knowing that I will get better if I could see a doctor. What horrified me was not what I had to go through. What horrified me is how some people start to treat me afterwards. They would treat me as a mental patient; they would think I am dangerous and crazy.. They also think I probably would be able to achieve anything in life anymore. I feel so sad about this. I have never been treated like this.

Evbn 14y ago

This discussion should have a professional hot line number attached. Real people could get really hurt venturing into this area. 1-800-273-8255

richardlblair 14y ago

I think this article is great, but what is better is the discussion in the comments. From what I've seen we have supportive people who are curious, and people that have had darker days. if you came here looking for something yourself, some glimpse of hope, just read the comments. Many people here suffered, and they found a way through it. You can too. Hang in there, you will get through it. Just keep fighting. Its worth it

jjb123 14y ago

As someone that has had a sibling take her own life, and another that has had suicidal thoughts frequently, this article was extremely helpful in seeing the cognitive layers beyond the emotional layers. Pretty eye-opening. I wonder if the cognitive destruction would prevent a person from even realizing they're experiencing cognitive destruction (eg, after reading an article like this)?

saraid216 14y ago
It doesn't necessarily; I think that varies wildly depending on the person. I'm a highly analytical person, for instance, and I immediately recognized each layer in myself. I'd be willing to bet, however, that there are plenty of people who'd read each item and deny their existence while experiencing each perfectly. I find myself unable to actually imagine this, but eh.

stmartin 14y ago

What a stupid article... Intellectualizing suicide - how much stupider can it get?

mcphilip 14y ago

For those interested in philosophy, Albert Camus famously said "There is only one really serious philosophical problem and that is suicide" [1]. Basically Camus asked the question why shouldn't he commit suicide and then worked on finding a philosophy that gave him reason not to. This comment may have no practical use to someone feeling suicidal, but those interested in a philosophical discussion of suicide should consider reading some of Camus' work. [1]http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/camus http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/camus

saraid216 14y ago
I would actually also suggest Montaigne. I found this a wonderful help to me in thinking about how to face life: http://www.amazon.com/How-Live-Montaigne-Question-Attempts/dp/1590514831 http://www.amazon.com/How-Live-Montaigne-Question-Attempts/d...
pekk 14y ago
If you are in a position to work for years on a philosophy to give you a reason not to commit suicide, then probably you are not really in the kind of position from which people normally commit suicide. Existentialism is a hobby and a thing to talk about, not a tested therapy for major clinical depression.
- saraid216 14y ago
  GP didn't say otherwise.

chookrl 14y ago

There are a lot of extreme sports that could look like people are literally trying to get themselves killed.

lhnz 14y ago

I think it has a different feeling for lots of different people and that the feeling can change. Sometimes it is the physical feeling of nausea and of cold water running through your veins. Other times you shake with anxiety and your thoughts do not stay still. You wonder if you will be crazy permanently as it stunts your abilities, and begin to count 1..2..3..4..5..6..7..in order to keep your mind..8..9..10..connected to that one thought you were trying to have. Or perhaps you feel everything has gone wrong and you recall how you tried to improve everything and what little effect you had; and you tell yourself off for your inadequacies and tell yourself that you must try harder next time. But you feel like it's hopeless: you did your best before and cannot see what you could do better. So you begin to cry and then start to laugh from the bitter-sweet realisation that you have given it everything. You ask yourself whether there's somebody to talk to about all of this, but the counsellors didn't work, your family have their own troubles, and your friends always cut you off at any sign you need their care. Why should you receive help anyway: nothing you are experiencing is out of the realms of normal human experience. You live a good life. Sometimes you run across the road and, as you run, a car narrowly misses you. "I'm not ready to die yet!" you joke, yet your mind counters "Who am I kidding?" So next time you walk slower, imagining the vehicle slam into you. Or you imagine throwing yourself off the buildings you're walking past, or walking into the bar and starting a fight with the most threatening looking thug so you could either win over something you hate or die violently. Sometimes people wonder where your new-found courage has come from: why you're not worried about failing anymore. The horrible truth, it was the best take-away from the worst thought: you want to win or be ripped apart. Other days you think of the positive mental attitude you have tried to grow, the self-help books you have read, the people you have given your love to, and the pressure that you are putting yourself under to try and come out of this and you just wonder how it has been months since I felt pleasure. A thought enters your mind: another 10 years for everybody's benefit but mine. Do I deserve this? Is being able to will myself to continue all there should be [0]. [0] http://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/hell/camus.html http://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/hell/camus.html

TempAccount767 14y ago

I tried to do it once. It's a really terrible place to be in. I tried to take a knife to my wrists but failed, then ate all the drugs I had on my shelf. Knocked myself out, and woke up in my own vomit with very sore wrists, not a cent to my name and all my credit cards maxed out from online gambling. The lowest point of my life. There was a build up leading up to that point, I had previously fantasized and romanticized about it. For me being suicidal was like being down an inescapable black hole. Managing depression was similar. When hard times hit, it's all too easy to let your mind slip down this black hole and start feeling suicidal and depressed, I have to fight to not go to that place mentally. But when you're feeling low and you can feel yourself slipping into this black hole it's very tempting to allow yourself to fall right in. For me also being suicidal was a deeply visceral experience, and also an experience of high perceived clarity. Mentally I felt very clear and focused. It was also a time of uncontrollable and intense emotion. I felt deeply emotional about life and humanity in general, with small moments of shame. It was also a time of high desperation, and a place I could see no escape from. It was a very strong cocktail of negative emotions which are hard enough to deal with individually. Life as it appeared around me I perceived as meaningless and vacuous. The path of least resistance to get through each day was cynicism. Sometimes when I watch the TV or news I had uncontrollable surges of very intense empathy which would cause me to cry. It's very hard to articulate exactly how low and desperate I felt. Fortunately for me my family were always there for me, and now I feel I am better. Even though at times I did not recognise they were there for me, they were and they were acting on it. Eventually I started to recognise it and very slowly I started to make things better. I really don't think there was any other way for me to escape it all except with the help of my family. I dread to think what would of become of me if I didn't have that support network. I feel if I did not have that support network, I do not think I would have escaped alive. For suicidal people in worse position than I was I do not know how you would go about helping them.