4 ms·

How about we leave age/sex/race out of it all and accept them into the community as peers and equals? I'm all about encouragement, but if we treat them differe

by ddunkin 14y ago

How about we leave age/sex/race out of it all and accept them into the community as peers and equals? I'm all about encouragement, but if we treat them differently because of age, we are just sheltering them from the real world (the Internet hardly counts there, I know). The Internet may not be the safest place to be taught how to accept criticism, but it is a lot easier to take (and more productive) when the attacks aren't personal and instead directed at an app.

anu_gupta 14y ago
> but if we treat them differently because of age So, to set up some obvious strawmen, you're ok with child labour? Or child soldiers? You're against laws preventing children from working more than x hours a week, or the age of consent? Of course we treat them differently because of age. They haven't had the time or the exposure to "toughen" them up - and (based on my own life), at that age they're quite possibly shy, insecure, nervous and unsure of their place in the world. So yes, of course they get treated differently. I'm not proposing an unquestioning "Wow, you're totally the best" attitude. But I am saying that one doesn't shit all over a kid just because one can.
- ddunkin 14y ago
  Law does not apply here and I didn't know we were discussing anything legal. Back to the context here, I am talking about the point of posting an app to HN. The goal is for feedback, if you want clear focused feedback, you need a focused post. The extra detail only bring the entire thread off-topic, as has been proven here multiple times.
  - danilocampos 14y ago
    I would say people being assholes brings the thread off-topic.
  - rquantz 14y ago
    But you give a teenage beginner different feedback than a seasoned professional.
    - jdotjdot 14y ago
      This is very true. I think a lot of this comes down to, no matter the technical expertise of the person, the fact that when you're very young, you lack some life experience and are in a different place with different needs than older professionals. That's not to say it makes them less legitimate or that they should be gone easier upon, but it definitely affects the advice. A 15 year old is thinking about college, a 45 year old is worries more about supporting his family, and those factors very much affect the situation.
    - mhurron 14y ago
      Then a better way to approach the situation is "I'm new, what do you think of ..." instead of "I'm X-teen, isn't what I did awesome!"
      - rquantz 14y ago
        That may be true, but humility is not one of the virtues typically associated with adolescence. When they tell you they're a teenager, they're asking you to go easy on them, and there's nothing wrong with that. That doesn't mean they can't also be proud of what they did.
      - jtheory 14y ago
        It's different, though in both cases their being new matters to the feedback you can give. A 50-year-old just starting out as a developer has already established to themselves that they can survive in the world as an adult; they have a history of successes (and failures, put into perspective over time...) that provide a base to their ego when they're criticized. A teenager has no context, yet -- no way to assess their own value; a minor success may make them feel like they've conquered the world, but it's fragile. If you tell them it's shit, and they haven't actually done anything worthwhile, they'll may well also accept that completely and be devastated. I run across teenagers who are surprisingly grounded now & again, but I know I certainly didn't feel like I had solid footing (and could navigate unkind criticism without being seriously hurt) until after I was out of college... and learned I could actually cut it in the real world.
  - DanBC 14y ago
    I think I agree with you. It'd be great if people could ignore age, sex, etc. It'd be great if people could just provide constructive criticism. (Of course, if someone is suggesting something dumb ("I'm going to run this exploit scanner against my school network.") we need firm words to explain just how serious the effects on their future might be. I agree that mentioning age in the title does drag the threads off-topic. But part of that is people being jerks to anyone who mentions their age. "I'm 14; I made X" means "I'm 14. emacs is about twice my age. The Matrix was released when I was born. And Fight Club. And Sixth Sense. And Star Wars. (No, not the ancient Star Wars, Star Wars Episode I the Phantom Menace.)" It means "I'm 14. OS X was released a couple of years after I was born." or "Windows 95 was obsoleted a couple of years after I was born." or "You've heard all those programming jokes about cars and programming languages or planes and programming languages and you've read all those papers about GOTO considered harmful and watched as people incremented their programming languages or moved to new platforms or introduced new ideas." or "You talk about 8 bit gaming or 16 bit gaming. I was born when the SNES was made obsolete. N64 had already been out a few years when I was born." or "Ubuntu got a first release when I was about 6." There's just so much that kids don't know.
danilocampos 14y ago
> How about we leave age/sex/race out of it all and accept them into the community as peers and equals? How about because it's not that simple? Being a teenager is fraught with insecurity, loneliness and the perception of being misunderstood. Lots of their maturity is still cooking. The teen years are also very formative. So if we can take an extra moment to give them the right nudge early in their trajectory, the final outcome of that tiny investment of time could be huge. If things about a shared project are crappy, that's worth mentioning, of course. That can and should be done in a way that's constructive and encouraging, though. I don't like the idea of a community that's too self-important to indulge the ambitious fragility of youth.
- freshhawk 14y ago
  I agree but have one nagging doubt that won't go away. Is it really ridiculous to want one "adults only" community of professional peers that isn't invite-only or purposefully hard to find? I find it enormously fulfilling to mentor younger programmers and have luckily had many chances to do so. But my personal development always suffered at those places compared to the places where I was working mostly with those near my level or above it. An online community can't serve two masters, it is either mainly for peer discussion (and elitist) or it is mainly beginner friendly. Beginner friendly often wins out because: "won't somebody please think of the children" is a discussion ender.
mtinkerhess 14y ago
It's difficult for anyone to avoid taking criticism of a project of theirs personally. These kids probably need to be encouraged to continue to put their work out there more than they need to be taught how to take criticism. When they reach a certain level of maturity, they'll be ready for blunt feedback and they'll stop identifying themselves as young developers. The choice HN is trying to make is whether it's the kind of place where developing developers can reach out for help that is catered to their level. Of course they can come here to get the same kind of advice everyone else gets. Is it worth it for HN to be the kind of place where young developers can feel welcome in their own skin? Is it worth it for us as a community in the long run to foster the talents of those that might be in our place in a decade or two? I'm not saying that we should give these kids undue praise for work that is clearly still at a student level. But maybe we can find a middle ground and help show them the next steps they should take in their development. If they don't identify themselves as young developers, we won't be able to help guide them.
InclinedPlane 14y ago
"Sheltering them from the real world." Indeed. Why don't we just thrust 14 year olds into the worst sort of soul-sucking office job for a year or so. That'll give 'em a good taste of the "real world".
- ddunkin 14y ago
  We really should, at least in the US, we generally make our kids choose an education path without having any experience, and before they even know what they want to do with their life. Many end up regretting their college decisions (and left with a huge debt) because they didn't have any idea what they were getting into, and didn't even really like the work in the first place. A little apprenticeship during these years would do wonders.

by ddunkin 14y ago

anu_gupta 14y ago

> but if we treat them differently because of age So, to set up some obvious strawmen, you're ok with child labour? Or child soldiers? You're against laws preventing children from working more than x hours a week, or the age of consent? Of course we treat them differently because of age. They haven't had the time or the exposure to "toughen" them up - and (based on my own life), at that age they're quite possibly shy, insecure, nervous and unsure of their place in the world. So yes, of course they get treated differently. I'm not proposing an unquestioning "Wow, you're totally the best" attitude. But I am saying that one doesn't shit all over a kid just because one can.

ddunkin 14y ago
Law does not apply here and I didn't know we were discussing anything legal. Back to the context here, I am talking about the point of posting an app to HN. The goal is for feedback, if you want clear focused feedback, you need a focused post. The extra detail only bring the entire thread off-topic, as has been proven here multiple times.
- danilocampos 14y ago
  I would say people being assholes brings the thread off-topic.
- rquantz 14y ago
  But you give a teenage beginner different feedback than a seasoned professional.
  - jdotjdot 14y ago
    This is very true. I think a lot of this comes down to, no matter the technical expertise of the person, the fact that when you're very young, you lack some life experience and are in a different place with different needs than older professionals. That's not to say it makes them less legitimate or that they should be gone easier upon, but it definitely affects the advice. A 15 year old is thinking about college, a 45 year old is worries more about supporting his family, and those factors very much affect the situation.
  - mhurron 14y ago
    Then a better way to approach the situation is "I'm new, what do you think of ..." instead of "I'm X-teen, isn't what I did awesome!"
    - rquantz 14y ago
      That may be true, but humility is not one of the virtues typically associated with adolescence. When they tell you they're a teenager, they're asking you to go easy on them, and there's nothing wrong with that. That doesn't mean they can't also be proud of what they did.
    - jtheory 14y ago
      It's different, though in both cases their being new matters to the feedback you can give. A 50-year-old just starting out as a developer has already established to themselves that they can survive in the world as an adult; they have a history of successes (and failures, put into perspective over time...) that provide a base to their ego when they're criticized. A teenager has no context, yet -- no way to assess their own value; a minor success may make them feel like they've conquered the world, but it's fragile. If you tell them it's shit, and they haven't actually done anything worthwhile, they'll may well also accept that completely and be devastated. I run across teenagers who are surprisingly grounded now & again, but I know I certainly didn't feel like I had solid footing (and could navigate unkind criticism without being seriously hurt) until after I was out of college... and learned I could actually cut it in the real world.
- DanBC 14y ago
  I think I agree with you. It'd be great if people could ignore age, sex, etc. It'd be great if people could just provide constructive criticism. (Of course, if someone is suggesting something dumb ("I'm going to run this exploit scanner against my school network.") we need firm words to explain just how serious the effects on their future might be. I agree that mentioning age in the title does drag the threads off-topic. But part of that is people being jerks to anyone who mentions their age. "I'm 14; I made X" means "I'm 14. emacs is about twice my age. The Matrix was released when I was born. And Fight Club. And Sixth Sense. And Star Wars. (No, not the ancient Star Wars, Star Wars Episode I the Phantom Menace.)" It means "I'm 14. OS X was released a couple of years after I was born." or "Windows 95 was obsoleted a couple of years after I was born." or "You've heard all those programming jokes about cars and programming languages or planes and programming languages and you've read all those papers about GOTO considered harmful and watched as people incremented their programming languages or moved to new platforms or introduced new ideas." or "You talk about 8 bit gaming or 16 bit gaming. I was born when the SNES was made obsolete. N64 had already been out a few years when I was born." or "Ubuntu got a first release when I was about 6." There's just so much that kids don't know.

danilocampos 14y ago

> How about we leave age/sex/race out of it all and accept them into the community as peers and equals? How about because it's not that simple? Being a teenager is fraught with insecurity, loneliness and the perception of being misunderstood. Lots of their maturity is still cooking. The teen years are also very formative. So if we can take an extra moment to give them the right nudge early in their trajectory, the final outcome of that tiny investment of time could be huge. If things about a shared project are crappy, that's worth mentioning, of course. That can and should be done in a way that's constructive and encouraging, though. I don't like the idea of a community that's too self-important to indulge the ambitious fragility of youth.

freshhawk 14y ago
I agree but have one nagging doubt that won't go away. Is it really ridiculous to want one "adults only" community of professional peers that isn't invite-only or purposefully hard to find? I find it enormously fulfilling to mentor younger programmers and have luckily had many chances to do so. But my personal development always suffered at those places compared to the places where I was working mostly with those near my level or above it. An online community can't serve two masters, it is either mainly for peer discussion (and elitist) or it is mainly beginner friendly. Beginner friendly often wins out because: "won't somebody please think of the children" is a discussion ender.

mtinkerhess 14y ago

It's difficult for anyone to avoid taking criticism of a project of theirs personally. These kids probably need to be encouraged to continue to put their work out there more than they need to be taught how to take criticism. When they reach a certain level of maturity, they'll be ready for blunt feedback and they'll stop identifying themselves as young developers. The choice HN is trying to make is whether it's the kind of place where developing developers can reach out for help that is catered to their level. Of course they can come here to get the same kind of advice everyone else gets. Is it worth it for HN to be the kind of place where young developers can feel welcome in their own skin? Is it worth it for us as a community in the long run to foster the talents of those that might be in our place in a decade or two? I'm not saying that we should give these kids undue praise for work that is clearly still at a student level. But maybe we can find a middle ground and help show them the next steps they should take in their development. If they don't identify themselves as young developers, we won't be able to help guide them.

InclinedPlane 14y ago

"Sheltering them from the real world." Indeed. Why don't we just thrust 14 year olds into the worst sort of soul-sucking office job for a year or so. That'll give 'em a good taste of the "real world".

ddunkin 14y ago
We really should, at least in the US, we generally make our kids choose an education path without having any experience, and before they even know what they want to do with their life. Many end up regretting their college decisions (and left with a huge debt) because they didn't have any idea what they were getting into, and didn't even really like the work in the first place. A little apprenticeship during these years would do wonders.