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Implore HN: Celebrate and encourage young developers who post here

294 points by danilocampos 14y ago

Recently an ugly and short-sighted essay about teens posting on HN hit the frontpage and was later killed. I'd like to take a moment to point out how important it is that we encourage young people who take the time and ego risk to share their work. "I am [age] and I made [thing]" actually means "I am new at this. I know you guys aren't. I want you to check it out and give me encouragement and guidance." Do they want attention? Of course! They believe, correctly, that the attention of more experienced people will lead to their growth. We should absolutely give it to them. Getting young people into science and technology is the single greatest professional duty any technologist has. We need help. The problems are so many and the minds equipped for them so few. We have an entire planet of dumb objects waiting to be woken up. We need software written and interfaces designed for classes of products we can't even imagine yet. So we need kids to grow up and choose the very, very hard work of learning to bend technology to their will. We need them to believe they can make careers out of it. And we certainly need them to believe that when they get there, they won't be surrounded by assholes. When a kid shows up sharing their work, we ought to circle around them and hoist them on our shoulders. They're choosing the career that will make our lives better one day. They're choosing the career that will broaden our hiring pools one day. They're, blessedly, choosing tech over drugs, drink, violence and investment banking. When a teenager comes shuffling along, awkwardly holding up his or her project for our scrutiny, take a moment and see if there's any experience of your own that you can offer to help them on their journey. If there isn't, move along quietly and let the mentors do their thing, eh? Young folks: I don't know a lot, but if you want career advice or tech advice or just someone to talk to, I'm mail@danilocampos.com.

pekk 14y ago
Other people shouldn't get encouragement and guidance and tolerance for their newness? Suggesting that you are an x years old child prodigy has become a cheap way of getting front page. If we are going to be nice to new projects we should be nice to them regardless of the claimed age of the author.
- mcknz 14y ago
  I didn't read this as exclusionary -- it's just a shorthand way of saying how much experience one has. Someone who is 35 could easily say "I have [X] number of years using [technique/technology]." If someone doesn't indicate age or experience, the default would be to treat submissions or projects as the marketplace would.
ddunkin 14y ago
How about we leave age/sex/race out of it all and accept them into the community as peers and equals? I'm all about encouragement, but if we treat them differently because of age, we are just sheltering them from the real world (the Internet hardly counts there, I know). The Internet may not be the safest place to be taught how to accept criticism, but it is a lot easier to take (and more productive) when the attacks aren't personal and instead directed at an app.
- anu_gupta 14y ago
  > but if we treat them differently because of age So, to set up some obvious strawmen, you're ok with child labour? Or child soldiers? You're against laws preventing children from working more than x hours a week, or the age of consent? Of course we treat them differently because of age. They haven't had the time or the exposure to "toughen" them up - and (based on my own life), at that age they're quite possibly shy, insecure, nervous and unsure of their place in the world. So yes, of course they get treated differently. I'm not proposing an unquestioning "Wow, you're totally the best" attitude. But I am saying that one doesn't shit all over a kid just because one can.
  - ddunkin 14y ago
    Law does not apply here and I didn't know we were discussing anything legal. Back to the context here, I am talking about the point of posting an app to HN. The goal is for feedback, if you want clear focused feedback, you need a focused post. The extra detail only bring the entire thread off-topic, as has been proven here multiple times.
    - danilocampos 14y ago
      I would say people being assholes brings the thread off-topic.
    - rquantz 14y ago
      But you give a teenage beginner different feedback than a seasoned professional.
joshmlewis 14y ago
I'm 19, and I can give credit to a couple forums (The Web Squeeze and Forrst) and Hacker News for making me successful. If it weren't for a handful of people out of the buckets of everyone, I wouldn't have had the encouragement or motivation to be where I am today. I skipped college, and am cofounding my second company now and leading a team of talented people. I would have never guessed I'd be doing that..even two years ago. If it weren't for you guys and other forums giving me critique, criticism, and encouragement, who knows where I'd be. I've learned soo much from HN, it's ridiculous, but it has helped me in more ways than I can acknowledge. Anyone can be an encouragement to someone like a younger me, but a lot of people don't. The ones who do however can really make a difference in peoples lives.
- danilocampos 14y ago
  Wow, mazal tov! This my favorite story I've read here. Congratulations on skipping college and getting right into the meat of your career.
  - joshmlewis 14y ago
    Thank you! I've written one blog post about my experience a few months out of high school, and I need to do a follow up with almost two years out now. My new company is launching in March and I'm super excited about it. Hopefully I'll have an even more interesting story to tell after that.
    - hndude 14y ago
      what happened with your first company?
      - joshmlewis 14y ago
        I was a cofounder and we went through an accelerator this past summer. I met a lot of people, learned a ton, but in the end I wasn't the right fit with the other cofounders and we were in a very niche space I didn't have a lot of domain knowledge in, so for lack of a better term, we parted ways. There are of course more details but that's the gist. It definitely taught me a few lessons and established relationships that are now funding the new company.
dear 14y ago
Who killed the thread?
devonbarrett 14y ago
As a 17 year old, I disagree, regardless of age, if someone creates or does something that is considered impressive, they should receive credit based upon that - not because of an arbitrary number that supposedly relates to their ability.
- danilocampos 14y ago
  Then I shall congratulate you for being well-encouraged and thick skinned in your world already. For everyone else lacking such good fortune, though, it would be nice if we could err on the side of being welcoming, rather than hostile.
  - devonbarrett 14y ago
    I agree with you on that, but I also think, why should that not be extended to everyone no matter what age?
    - danilocampos 14y ago
      Because it is a grand human tradition to show extra kindness, attention and indulgence to the young, that they might be equipped to build a better world. Someone helping me with a project is nice. Someone helping you with a project is an investment in the future. My neuroplasticity wanes with every passing year. Your mind remains limber. I am encumbered by obligations and debts, limiting my flexibility. You have infinitely more options. Helping you is just a better bet than helping me. You're still on the launchpad, fuel tank still full. If there's something simple, like an encouraging comment or a thoughtful correction, that can be done to help you meet a wonderful trajectory, we should absolutely do it.
  - ruswick 14y ago
    Arguing that one ought not to include their age is not akin to arguing that one ought to be hostile to young people. We should just not be inordinately soft in criticism. Doing otherwise just inhibits development of "thick skin." The world is comprised predominately of people that either 1) don't like you or 2) are indifferent to you but don't like your work. That's not because their assholes, but just because they're aware of the flaws in you or your work. The sooner one experiences them, the sooner one can start to take advantage of their advice.
rhizome 14y ago
It sounds like this was inspired by a single incident, so is this really as large a problem as described? Also, for a fun game, replace the word "attention" with "money."
- danilocampos 14y ago
  This is an ongoing bad attitude, actually. This was just the latest example. Kids who post their age often have their comments devolve into moronic arguments about whether their age should really matter.
- ianstormtaylor 14y ago
  Yeah, pretty much every "I'm X and I made X" thread I've seen has turned into a battle between people flaming the person for being young and the people praising them.
deluxaran 14y ago
Age part should not be thrown away. There are lots of young people out there, myself included, that are in need of advice, tips and help( even saying that something I've done is wrong and bringing some arguments, suggestions and whatever you thing it is useful is better than nothing, at least I know where to start improving my skills and work)
davidw 14y ago
Why not be supportive and friendly to everyone? I always find the "say it to their face" rule is a good one for formulating even negative comments. Rather than channeling your inner comic book guy, it helps you think of how to state something unpleasant in a constructive, polite way.
- danilocampos 14y ago
  Absolutely. But it's worth making a special effort for the young. As I told a teen poster below: Someone helping me with a project is nice. Someone helping you with a project is an investment in the future. My neuroplasticity wanes with every passing year. Your mind remains limber. I am encumbered by obligations and debts, limiting my flexibility. You have infinitely more options. Helping you is just a better bet than helping me. You're still on the launchpad, fuel tank still full. If there's something simple, like an encouraging comment or a thoughtful correction, that can be done to help you meet a wonderful trajectory, we should absolutely do it.
mbales 14y ago
newbies should not get discouraged. I am involved with a lot of young developers through mpelembe.net and I always encourage newbies to get involved in discussion groups and ocassionally manage to persuade to attend developer events.
ktrgardiner 14y ago
I think announcing your young age alongside your project is important because it opens up more opportunities for others to guide you and help fuel your passion and talent. Without the age, people will assume that the creator is old enough to know what they enjoy and what they want to pursue. But with the age, you'll have people with more experience saying "Since you obviously like X, you should look into Y and Z. Here are some great resources on those topics." Advice like that is invaluable and we should encourage scenarios that result in it.
- danilocampos 14y ago
  Yeah, this is a really important point. Part of good mentorship is exposing unknown unknowns. You've got way, way more of those the younger you are.
- ruswick 14y ago
  The issue is that most posts that announce one's age don't result in guidance. They result in a chorus of "good jobs" that, although nice, don't offer any real constructive advice. I've always postulated that one would get more actionable advice and sincere criticism if they did not include their age, and that age merely lowers the bar and dilutes the value of the discussion. Including one's age might result in comments that make the poster feel better, but they won't make him code better.
  - ktrgardiner 14y ago
    That is very true. But that's on us for being disingenuous and watering ourselves down; not on the kids for revealing their age.
fizx 14y ago
s/young/any/
qzxt 14y ago
If this is in relation to http://vishnumenon.com/2013/01/21/im-35-months-old-and-i-made-this-cool-app/ http://vishnumenon.com/2013/01/21/im-35-months-old-and-i-mad... then I think you miss the point. I agree with the author of that and it is the most common sense post I've read, so far, regarding this issue. The reality is people posting their age doesn't simply mean "I am new at this. I know you guys aren't. I want you to check it out and give me encouragement and guidance." Simultaneously the people throwing out the "age is irrelevant" argument simply miss the point, also. I'm 19 and I've been programming for as long as I can remember starting with my shitty commodore64 hand-me-down. Along the years I have received much criticism and help and am immensely grateful to the people who took the time out to answer every question I had, trivial and otherwise - and believe me, there were plenty of them. However the idea of constructive criticism on HN, and sadly, in the hacker community at large is ironically more political than logical. "Criticism" seems to be code for "I'm smarter than you and I'll be damned if I don't make sure you know it." The hostility towards, not just kids, but people's projects in general borders on the pathological and that's what needs to be addressed. I wholeheartedly agree that kids who are building fun projects do need that nudge and that encouragement to go deeper down the rabbit hole, however we should indeed distinguish between encouragement and patting on the back. The problem is the risk of creating a Hollywoood mentality (Hollywood may be the bastion of acting but really most people are more attracted to the prospects of fame than actual acting). We need to give them encouragement that lets them enjoy the process, not just massaging their egos, and moreover we need to get them to enjoy constructive criticism and see it not as "boo-hoo they didn't like my stuff" but as "hmm I never thought about that." The reality is, the poisonous, know-it-all, thinly veiled political nature of our culture doesn't provide this.
- danilocampos 14y ago
  That essay called mentioning age "manipulative," which is easily the most jackasstic thing I've seen on the subject. Whatever valid point might have been there was lost in the cold dismissiveness of the author's attitude.
  - qzxt 14y ago
    So is your point that he was incorrect in stating that a lot of people post their age in order to get to the front page or that calling that action manipulative is wrong? The thesis of the post seemed to me to be if you make a product, focus on making the product better and everything else falls into place. Very fair bit of advice if you ask me. Furthermore, it states another related thing which is, how are you going to get any actual feedback when all the comments are either calling you an asshole or rallying around you, singing war cries. Now with regard to posting age, that's actually very variable why people do that, and from an objective standpoint I don't find anything wrong with that. However if what you're after is guidance then it's pretty obvious posting your age isn't going to get you much of that.
vishnumenon 14y ago
As the author of the "ugly and short-sighted essay" in question, I want to just mention that I meant no hard feelings to anyone of any age, and tried hard to critique the behavior, not the person, Sorry if it came across as ugly. However, I stand by my opinion. I believe that there are plenty of other places these teens can go for blanket approval and yes-men, such as friends and family. HN is, to me, reserved for unbiased and fair commentary. As an aside, I think everyone's post should be considered carefully and encouraged; however, it shouldn't be based on age. Also, in response to those who raised comments about how Mozart's age was relevant to his accomplishments, I must say that in our day and age, teens making apps is hardly that noteworthy anymore. Yes, it is impressive, but not exceptionally so. Lastly, why exactly was my original post killed? What happened to it? I may not understand HN fully, but I thought something that fostered a good discussion would be kept. I can't even find the post anymore! Would it have stayed up if I had said I was 16?
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- goostavos 14y ago
  Would you post the link here? I would be interesting in reading your specific arguments. The only issue I really take with the "I'm 14 and check out my first [x]," is that some of them feel a little suspect. Hell, I stumbled upon one of the "I'm 15 and.." guys astroturfing his thread. He neglected to change accounts, and so he gave a glowing review about how great the game was, and how awesome the it is that he's doing this at his age... all from the same account he used to post the link. When I pointed this out to him, everything was quickly deleted. Maybe I'm letting one bad apple spoil everything, but I feel that some percentage of the "I'm young, check out this really mediocre, yet ad supported thing I made" are in fact, just some older guy's weekend passive income experiment.
  - dfabulich 14y ago
    It's http://vishnumenon.com/2013/01/21/im-35-months-old-and-i-made-this-cool-app/ http://vishnumenon.com/2013/01/21/im-35-months-old-and-i-mad...
kabirkumar 14y ago
My name is Kabir, and I am looking for young, motivated, and passionate individuals to help me with my great startup idea. If you are willing to talk, shoot me an e-mail at; KabirKumar@me.com Lets get to work!
- dm8 14y ago
  Wrong place, wrong time. Better to learn the trade by yourself!
- wuster 14y ago
  Yah... I'm reading this as you wanting to exploit them.
kabirkumar 14y ago
My name is Kabir, and I am looking for young, motivated, and passionate individuals to help me with my great startup idea. If you are willing to talk, shoot me an e-mail at; KabirKumar@me.com Lets get to work!
dm8 14y ago
I agree. Kids post their age to get attention. They want experienced devs to take a look at their code/app/project. Lets help them! All you need to do is a upvote or comment.
lifeisstillgood 14y ago
Memo to self: Make mentoring site (hackernewsmentor.com) Where old and weary can openly agree certain SLAs With the young and enthusiastic If more of us see it publically more of us will be encouraged to answer a months worth of questions on perl As for me - I could have done with a mentor not for technical issues - but for the life and career choices I made badly twenty years ago - but I would only have take. Advice from someone whom I technically respected.
- jayferd 14y ago
  I'm in. Let me know when you get started with this, I'll help build it.
  - kveykva 14y ago
    I'd definitely help as well if I could be of any use.
wuster 14y ago
Agreed. I always make the time of day to talk to high school or college age kids aspiring to be in engineering or the sciences. Paying it forward if you will, because I got the same help when I was younger.
kyro 14y ago
That blog article was one of the stupidest things I've ever read. I never got the encouragement or support to pursue my hobbies at a young age, whether from parents or friends, and would've killed to have a community like this that could've praised me and pushed me forward. To accuse a kid mentioning the fact that he's 14 in his submission title as being manipulative really reflects on how out of touch you are with the way humans operate. A kid his age is looking to show off his work, proud that he's not wasting his time on Power Rangers and Nerf guns, putting his focus and attention to furthering his meaningful hobbies. You encourage that, not dismiss him. Time and time again, it's just remarkable to me how socially inept the lot of you are. When your child comes up to you and exclaims "Daddy, Daddy! Look what I've done!", you sure as hell aren't going to say "Heh, yeah, I did that too, but I was younger."
- mhurron 14y ago
  We're not these children's daddies though, are we? Did you run up to every adult expecting praise? Did they give it to you? This is a group of, by and large, professionals. They are going to look at it in a critical light. If you want critical feedback, this is the forum to show it to. If you want coddling and nothing but positive reinforcement, stick with your parents, teachers and friends.
  - ckrailo 14y ago
    Positive reinforcement and pleasant feedback are how people grow, not some type of angry neckbeard behavior. Everybody knows the professionals are superior, so we ought to kindly and gently nudge the newcomers to the same level of excellence.
    - scoot 14y ago
      How Not to Talk to Your Kids The inverse power of praise. (2007) http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/index4.html http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/index4.html
      - kyro 14y ago
justjimmy 14y ago
There is a reason why there is an age of consent, why there is a youth criminal system, why there are age limits. Some of you clearly lack empathy.
iuguy 14y ago
I'm all for people shipping. Age isn't really a part of it. What I'm not all for is people creating an account, posting the thing they're looking to promote and only posting in that thread - otherwise completely disengaged with the HN community. You can argue that lurkers form part of that community. My counterpoint would be that if you create a specific account and post the thing you're trying to promote in the first 10 minutes, you haven't lurked enough. Yes I know you can lurk without an account, but to reach the stage where that's considered acceptable you have to travel through if they felt they couldn't register an account for more than 5 minutes, if they felt they couldn't comment and plenty of other ifs, yet somehow they can create an account and post what they're promoting in 10 minutes, then only interact with people in their thread? Young people should be encouraged. Aaron Swartz was 14 when he worked on RSS. But being young doesn't give you a free pass at being a spammer, and that's what kicked this whole thing off.
Cogito 14y ago
Should age be included in a post's title? In most cases, the age can be disclosed in the comments without losing any information, and in the process removing any 'negative' connotations. I posted something on the thread that started this whole dance a day or so ago, however it probably merits further expansion. Most arguments that are 'pro' age disclosure boil down to "We should treat younger members of the community differently". This comes in many forms, like how we should be supportive, how we should mentor the next generation, and how teenagers are often insecure. I agree with them, at least in general. Arguments 'against' age disclosure have a few flavours; some say that we should treat posts based on merit, that we should not discriminate based on age, but mostly it comes down to "Posts with the age in the title are 'gaming' the system (purposefully or not)" and the meta-argument that such posts encourage talking about community instead of the post. I agree with this side as well. The thing is, placing your age in the title of your post is link-baity. It may be unintentional or it may be coolly calculated, but in most cases if you remove that piece of information the post title is entirely uninteresting. So we have two types of posts to consider. The first are those posts where the age of the person involved contributes to how interesting the post is to HN. A completely fabricated example: "12 year-old entrepreneur youngest funded by YC". The second type of post are those where the age of the person involved contributes to how the HN community responds to the post. A young developer's first app would fall into this category. In the first case, I believe this is useful information to have in the post title. In the second this is useful information, however I do not believe it is useful in the post title. For these posts, I would much rather see the age included as a comment on the post. In any post that use of age in the title gets called out for being 'link-baity', 'manipulative' or 'gaming the system' the main counterargument is that knowing the age helps the community know how to respond to the post. The age can be removed from the post title, and placed in the comments, addressing both major concerns. [edit] improved summary.
- DanBC 14y ago
  I'm pretty sure that you do not think the correct response to a title including an age is to rant at the poster, to be rude and aggressive. It's possible to express dissatisfaction with a title and to encourage better posting habits without being a jerk. I agree with your summary. The problem isn't with HN being jerks to young people. The problem is with HN being jerks to anyone.
ScottWhigham 14y ago
Getting young people into science and technology is the single greatest professional duty any technologist has. What? I don't understand this at all. The "single greatest professional duty any technologist" has is unique to that "technologist". If, for example, I'm a 23yo kid who just graduated uni and in my first job, do you think for a second that I give a #$(* about "getting young people into science and technology"? Of course not. I'm so busy trying to figure basic life out that I don't have time for that sort of thing. If I'm a 33yo dad who wants to start my own business, I don't care one whit about 'getting young people into science and technology' b/c, between working 60 hours a week and changing my kids' diapers, I'm sleeping. Good for teens - glad for them - but this statement is just silly.
- BlackJack 14y ago
  I'm a 19 year old and when I got into college I remember thinking that I would love to interview prospective students after I graduated. Maybe you don't care about mentoring young people, but there are certainly many, many people who care a lot about that.
  - ScottWhigham 14y ago
    Maybe you don't care about mentoring young people I carefully crafted my reply and for you to mistakenly read that into it made me go back and re-read my reply. I don't see where you get that I say that I "don't care about mentoring young people". Please take the time to point out where/what part I seem to imply that I don't care about mentoring young people. Actually, hell, I'll make it easier for you: point out where I state my opinion about what I prefer at all. Please - before you misquote, misunderstand, and then slag someone, take the time to re-read what they've written. Maybe it's your reading comprehension that was the problem rather than their post. And besides, "there are certainly many, many people who care a lot about" (insert anything ever here). There always has been and always will be. Stating the obvious doesn't really help here.
    - BlackJack 14y ago
      The part that got me to think that was when you said: > I don't care one whit about 'getting young people into science and technology Sorry if I misunderstood, and maybe we're just arguing between "mentoring" and "getting young people into tech," but I was referring to your sentiment as opposed to some exact wording.
mmanfrin 14y ago
Two cents: I worry that we run the risk of acquiring that awful trend of reddit's to append some personal relation to every post (e.g. "My Brother did this...", "My SO made me a cake", etc) which has become a terribly abused trope. The user account of the 14 year old kid who posted the Show HN that prompted this was a brand new account. The App Author was listed under a different name than the user account seemed to suggest. It screamed 'manipulation' to me. I'm all for encouraging younger developers, but at a certain point you have to step back and evaluate whether we're promoting things based on merit or a sense of communal nepotism.
zmitri 14y ago
In a lot of communities, the "this is my first post" is often celebrated. On HN it definitely is not, which is kind of strange. Glad you put this out there danilo.
- olivier1664 14y ago
  Maybe a question of size. In a small communities, everybody knows everybody. Here, it is not the case, we do not look the persons, just the result.
trishume 14y ago
I'm 16 and Things I've written have made the front page twice, both times without mentioning my age. As a teenager, it feels really good to make the front page or #1 with no "omg they're young" bonus points. Granted, it is encouraging to get bonus up votes for being young and achieving something.
jsonmez 14y ago
Let's treat all fellow human beings this way. We are all kids at heart. We are all seeking approval. Why admonish or dismiss anyone? What good does it do? I don't mean to diminish from your point, because I think it is absolutely correct.
jacquesm 14y ago
It's not just the blog article. It's also the attitude of people that will berate a youngster for being young and going out on a limb to show what they've made and making the mistake of telling us their age. That age thing is not a qualifier of pride, it's a guide to the mental state and the amount of experience the poster has. What amazes me most is that after seeing how one young developer gets treated that the next one still dares to post at all. Danilocampos is exactly right. As far as career advice or tech advice, if you think I can contribute regardless of age feel free to contact me as well, j@ww.com . I can't promise to always be immediately available but I'll do my best.
luisivan 14y ago
I can't agree more. I started my first project, Asturix, a Linux distribution, at age 12. I have found all kind of complications, most of them related with being young. I live in Spain, where there are a lot of prejudices against youth. Also, the educational system here doesn't empower any "21 century" value such as creativity or inspiration. Fortunately, the situation is changing thanks to the media and other young entrepreneurs and I are starting to be famous in Spain. On the other hand, working and studying in Spain at the same time is really, really, really hard. Oh, and we have a youth unemployment rate of 54%. Right now I'm 17 and have founded a couple companies, what has been really hard due to legal issues - creating a company in Spain being underage is practically illegal. I have also started an incubator for hackers from 12 to 18 so they can create their projects in a easier way. This is a beautiful age for discovering your passion, but if people screw you out it can be a difficult one. The talent is there, but we have to let it grow.
dragos2 14y ago
I read a couple of days ago a blog post written by a 17 years old in which he was stating a rather interesting fact. He was saying he prefers to omit mentioning his age on forums and discussion boards (such as HN) because he wants to be critiqued for his work regardless of his age. I found that to be incredibly accurate. Most of the kids want to just show-off their projects, but there are still a lot of them who want genuine critique. So, if you want to get real opinions about your project and you post on HN or reddit, you should put on your big boy pants.

294 points by danilocampos 14y ago

pekk 14y ago

Other people shouldn't get encouragement and guidance and tolerance for their newness? Suggesting that you are an x years old child prodigy has become a cheap way of getting front page. If we are going to be nice to new projects we should be nice to them regardless of the claimed age of the author.

mcknz 14y ago
I didn't read this as exclusionary -- it's just a shorthand way of saying how much experience one has. Someone who is 35 could easily say "I have [X] number of years using [technique/technology]." If someone doesn't indicate age or experience, the default would be to treat submissions or projects as the marketplace would.

ddunkin 14y ago

How about we leave age/sex/race out of it all and accept them into the community as peers and equals? I'm all about encouragement, but if we treat them differently because of age, we are just sheltering them from the real world (the Internet hardly counts there, I know). The Internet may not be the safest place to be taught how to accept criticism, but it is a lot easier to take (and more productive) when the attacks aren't personal and instead directed at an app.

anu_gupta 14y ago
> but if we treat them differently because of age So, to set up some obvious strawmen, you're ok with child labour? Or child soldiers? You're against laws preventing children from working more than x hours a week, or the age of consent? Of course we treat them differently because of age. They haven't had the time or the exposure to "toughen" them up - and (based on my own life), at that age they're quite possibly shy, insecure, nervous and unsure of their place in the world. So yes, of course they get treated differently. I'm not proposing an unquestioning "Wow, you're totally the best" attitude. But I am saying that one doesn't shit all over a kid just because one can.
- ddunkin 14y ago
  Law does not apply here and I didn't know we were discussing anything legal. Back to the context here, I am talking about the point of posting an app to HN. The goal is for feedback, if you want clear focused feedback, you need a focused post. The extra detail only bring the entire thread off-topic, as has been proven here multiple times.
  - danilocampos 14y ago
    I would say people being assholes brings the thread off-topic.
  - rquantz 14y ago
    But you give a teenage beginner different feedback than a seasoned professional.

joshmlewis 14y ago

I'm 19, and I can give credit to a couple forums (The Web Squeeze and Forrst) and Hacker News for making me successful. If it weren't for a handful of people out of the buckets of everyone, I wouldn't have had the encouragement or motivation to be where I am today. I skipped college, and am cofounding my second company now and leading a team of talented people. I would have never guessed I'd be doing that..even two years ago. If it weren't for you guys and other forums giving me critique, criticism, and encouragement, who knows where I'd be. I've learned soo much from HN, it's ridiculous, but it has helped me in more ways than I can acknowledge. Anyone can be an encouragement to someone like a younger me, but a lot of people don't. The ones who do however can really make a difference in peoples lives.

danilocampos 14y ago
Wow, mazal tov! This my favorite story I've read here. Congratulations on skipping college and getting right into the meat of your career.
- joshmlewis 14y ago
  Thank you! I've written one blog post about my experience a few months out of high school, and I need to do a follow up with almost two years out now. My new company is launching in March and I'm super excited about it. Hopefully I'll have an even more interesting story to tell after that.
  - hndude 14y ago
    what happened with your first company?
    - joshmlewis 14y ago
      I was a cofounder and we went through an accelerator this past summer. I met a lot of people, learned a ton, but in the end I wasn't the right fit with the other cofounders and we were in a very niche space I didn't have a lot of domain knowledge in, so for lack of a better term, we parted ways. There are of course more details but that's the gist. It definitely taught me a few lessons and established relationships that are now funding the new company.

dear 14y ago

Who killed the thread?

devonbarrett 14y ago

As a 17 year old, I disagree, regardless of age, if someone creates or does something that is considered impressive, they should receive credit based upon that - not because of an arbitrary number that supposedly relates to their ability.

danilocampos 14y ago
Then I shall congratulate you for being well-encouraged and thick skinned in your world already. For everyone else lacking such good fortune, though, it would be nice if we could err on the side of being welcoming, rather than hostile.
- devonbarrett 14y ago
  I agree with you on that, but I also think, why should that not be extended to everyone no matter what age?
  - danilocampos 14y ago
    Because it is a grand human tradition to show extra kindness, attention and indulgence to the young, that they might be equipped to build a better world. Someone helping me with a project is nice. Someone helping you with a project is an investment in the future. My neuroplasticity wanes with every passing year. Your mind remains limber. I am encumbered by obligations and debts, limiting my flexibility. You have infinitely more options. Helping you is just a better bet than helping me. You're still on the launchpad, fuel tank still full. If there's something simple, like an encouraging comment or a thoughtful correction, that can be done to help you meet a wonderful trajectory, we should absolutely do it.
- ruswick 14y ago
  Arguing that one ought not to include their age is not akin to arguing that one ought to be hostile to young people. We should just not be inordinately soft in criticism. Doing otherwise just inhibits development of "thick skin." The world is comprised predominately of people that either 1) don't like you or 2) are indifferent to you but don't like your work. That's not because their assholes, but just because they're aware of the flaws in you or your work. The sooner one experiences them, the sooner one can start to take advantage of their advice.

rhizome 14y ago

It sounds like this was inspired by a single incident, so is this really as large a problem as described? Also, for a fun game, replace the word "attention" with "money."

danilocampos 14y ago
This is an ongoing bad attitude, actually. This was just the latest example. Kids who post their age often have their comments devolve into moronic arguments about whether their age should really matter.
ianstormtaylor 14y ago
Yeah, pretty much every "I'm X and I made X" thread I've seen has turned into a battle between people flaming the person for being young and the people praising them.

deluxaran 14y ago

Age part should not be thrown away. There are lots of young people out there, myself included, that are in need of advice, tips and help( even saying that something I've done is wrong and bringing some arguments, suggestions and whatever you thing it is useful is better than nothing, at least I know where to start improving my skills and work)

davidw 14y ago

Why not be supportive and friendly to everyone? I always find the "say it to their face" rule is a good one for formulating even negative comments. Rather than channeling your inner comic book guy, it helps you think of how to state something unpleasant in a constructive, polite way.

danilocampos 14y ago
Absolutely. But it's worth making a special effort for the young. As I told a teen poster below: Someone helping me with a project is nice. Someone helping you with a project is an investment in the future. My neuroplasticity wanes with every passing year. Your mind remains limber. I am encumbered by obligations and debts, limiting my flexibility. You have infinitely more options. Helping you is just a better bet than helping me. You're still on the launchpad, fuel tank still full. If there's something simple, like an encouraging comment or a thoughtful correction, that can be done to help you meet a wonderful trajectory, we should absolutely do it.

mbales 14y ago

newbies should not get discouraged. I am involved with a lot of young developers through mpelembe.net and I always encourage newbies to get involved in discussion groups and ocassionally manage to persuade to attend developer events.

ktrgardiner 14y ago

I think announcing your young age alongside your project is important because it opens up more opportunities for others to guide you and help fuel your passion and talent. Without the age, people will assume that the creator is old enough to know what they enjoy and what they want to pursue. But with the age, you'll have people with more experience saying "Since you obviously like X, you should look into Y and Z. Here are some great resources on those topics." Advice like that is invaluable and we should encourage scenarios that result in it.

danilocampos 14y ago
Yeah, this is a really important point. Part of good mentorship is exposing unknown unknowns. You've got way, way more of those the younger you are.
ruswick 14y ago
The issue is that most posts that announce one's age don't result in guidance. They result in a chorus of "good jobs" that, although nice, don't offer any real constructive advice. I've always postulated that one would get more actionable advice and sincere criticism if they did not include their age, and that age merely lowers the bar and dilutes the value of the discussion. Including one's age might result in comments that make the poster feel better, but they won't make him code better.
- ktrgardiner 14y ago
  That is very true. But that's on us for being disingenuous and watering ourselves down; not on the kids for revealing their age.

fizx 14y ago

s/young/any/

qzxt 14y ago

If this is in relation to http://vishnumenon.com/2013/01/21/im-35-months-old-and-i-made-this-cool-app/ http://vishnumenon.com/2013/01/21/im-35-months-old-and-i-mad... then I think you miss the point. I agree with the author of that and it is the most common sense post I've read, so far, regarding this issue. The reality is people posting their age doesn't simply mean "I am new at this. I know you guys aren't. I want you to check it out and give me encouragement and guidance." Simultaneously the people throwing out the "age is irrelevant" argument simply miss the point, also. I'm 19 and I've been programming for as long as I can remember starting with my shitty commodore64 hand-me-down. Along the years I have received much criticism and help and am immensely grateful to the people who took the time out to answer every question I had, trivial and otherwise - and believe me, there were plenty of them. However the idea of constructive criticism on HN, and sadly, in the hacker community at large is ironically more political than logical. "Criticism" seems to be code for "I'm smarter than you and I'll be damned if I don't make sure you know it." The hostility towards, not just kids, but people's projects in general borders on the pathological and that's what needs to be addressed. I wholeheartedly agree that kids who are building fun projects do need that nudge and that encouragement to go deeper down the rabbit hole, however we should indeed distinguish between encouragement and patting on the back. The problem is the risk of creating a Hollywoood mentality (Hollywood may be the bastion of acting but really most people are more attracted to the prospects of fame than actual acting). We need to give them encouragement that lets them enjoy the process, not just massaging their egos, and moreover we need to get them to enjoy constructive criticism and see it not as "boo-hoo they didn't like my stuff" but as "hmm I never thought about that." The reality is, the poisonous, know-it-all, thinly veiled political nature of our culture doesn't provide this.

danilocampos 14y ago
That essay called mentioning age "manipulative," which is easily the most jackasstic thing I've seen on the subject. Whatever valid point might have been there was lost in the cold dismissiveness of the author's attitude.
- qzxt 14y ago
  So is your point that he was incorrect in stating that a lot of people post their age in order to get to the front page or that calling that action manipulative is wrong? The thesis of the post seemed to me to be if you make a product, focus on making the product better and everything else falls into place. Very fair bit of advice if you ask me. Furthermore, it states another related thing which is, how are you going to get any actual feedback when all the comments are either calling you an asshole or rallying around you, singing war cries. Now with regard to posting age, that's actually very variable why people do that, and from an objective standpoint I don't find anything wrong with that. However if what you're after is guidance then it's pretty obvious posting your age isn't going to get you much of that.

vishnumenon 14y ago

As the author of the "ugly and short-sighted essay" in question, I want to just mention that I meant no hard feelings to anyone of any age, and tried hard to critique the behavior, not the person, Sorry if it came across as ugly. However, I stand by my opinion. I believe that there are plenty of other places these teens can go for blanket approval and yes-men, such as friends and family. HN is, to me, reserved for unbiased and fair commentary. As an aside, I think everyone's post should be considered carefully and encouraged; however, it shouldn't be based on age. Also, in response to those who raised comments about how Mozart's age was relevant to his accomplishments, I must say that in our day and age, teens making apps is hardly that noteworthy anymore. Yes, it is impressive, but not exceptionally so. Lastly, why exactly was my original post killed? What happened to it? I may not understand HN fully, but I thought something that fostered a good discussion would be kept. I can't even find the post anymore! Would it have stayed up if I had said I was 16?

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
goostavos 14y ago
Would you post the link here? I would be interesting in reading your specific arguments. The only issue I really take with the "I'm 14 and check out my first [x]," is that some of them feel a little suspect. Hell, I stumbled upon one of the "I'm 15 and.." guys astroturfing his thread. He neglected to change accounts, and so he gave a glowing review about how great the game was, and how awesome the it is that he's doing this at his age... all from the same account he used to post the link. When I pointed this out to him, everything was quickly deleted. Maybe I'm letting one bad apple spoil everything, but I feel that some percentage of the "I'm young, check out this really mediocre, yet ad supported thing I made" are in fact, just some older guy's weekend passive income experiment.
- dfabulich 14y ago
  It's http://vishnumenon.com/2013/01/21/im-35-months-old-and-i-made-this-cool-app/ http://vishnumenon.com/2013/01/21/im-35-months-old-and-i-mad...

kabirkumar 14y ago

My name is Kabir, and I am looking for young, motivated, and passionate individuals to help me with my great startup idea. If you are willing to talk, shoot me an e-mail at; KabirKumar@me.com Lets get to work!

dm8 14y ago
Wrong place, wrong time. Better to learn the trade by yourself!
wuster 14y ago
Yah... I'm reading this as you wanting to exploit them.

kabirkumar 14y ago

dm8 14y ago

I agree. Kids post their age to get attention. They want experienced devs to take a look at their code/app/project. Lets help them! All you need to do is a upvote or comment.

lifeisstillgood 14y ago

Memo to self: Make mentoring site (hackernewsmentor.com) Where old and weary can openly agree certain SLAs With the young and enthusiastic If more of us see it publically more of us will be encouraged to answer a months worth of questions on perl As for me - I could have done with a mentor not for technical issues - but for the life and career choices I made badly twenty years ago - but I would only have take. Advice from someone whom I technically respected.

jayferd 14y ago
I'm in. Let me know when you get started with this, I'll help build it.
- kveykva 14y ago
  I'd definitely help as well if I could be of any use.

wuster 14y ago

Agreed. I always make the time of day to talk to high school or college age kids aspiring to be in engineering or the sciences. Paying it forward if you will, because I got the same help when I was younger.

kyro 14y ago

That blog article was one of the stupidest things I've ever read. I never got the encouragement or support to pursue my hobbies at a young age, whether from parents or friends, and would've killed to have a community like this that could've praised me and pushed me forward. To accuse a kid mentioning the fact that he's 14 in his submission title as being manipulative really reflects on how out of touch you are with the way humans operate. A kid his age is looking to show off his work, proud that he's not wasting his time on Power Rangers and Nerf guns, putting his focus and attention to furthering his meaningful hobbies. You encourage that, not dismiss him. Time and time again, it's just remarkable to me how socially inept the lot of you are. When your child comes up to you and exclaims "Daddy, Daddy! Look what I've done!", you sure as hell aren't going to say "Heh, yeah, I did that too, but I was younger."

mhurron 14y ago
We're not these children's daddies though, are we? Did you run up to every adult expecting praise? Did they give it to you? This is a group of, by and large, professionals. They are going to look at it in a critical light. If you want critical feedback, this is the forum to show it to. If you want coddling and nothing but positive reinforcement, stick with your parents, teachers and friends.
- ckrailo 14y ago
  Positive reinforcement and pleasant feedback are how people grow, not some type of angry neckbeard behavior. Everybody knows the professionals are superior, so we ought to kindly and gently nudge the newcomers to the same level of excellence.
  - scoot 14y ago
    How Not to Talk to Your Kids The inverse power of praise. (2007) http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/index4.html http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/index4.html
    - kyro 14y ago

justjimmy 14y ago

There is a reason why there is an age of consent, why there is a youth criminal system, why there are age limits. Some of you clearly lack empathy.

iuguy 14y ago

I'm all for people shipping. Age isn't really a part of it. What I'm not all for is people creating an account, posting the thing they're looking to promote and only posting in that thread - otherwise completely disengaged with the HN community. You can argue that lurkers form part of that community. My counterpoint would be that if you create a specific account and post the thing you're trying to promote in the first 10 minutes, you haven't lurked enough. Yes I know you can lurk without an account, but to reach the stage where that's considered acceptable you have to travel through if they felt they couldn't register an account for more than 5 minutes, if they felt they couldn't comment and plenty of other ifs, yet somehow they can create an account and post what they're promoting in 10 minutes, then only interact with people in their thread? Young people should be encouraged. Aaron Swartz was 14 when he worked on RSS. But being young doesn't give you a free pass at being a spammer, and that's what kicked this whole thing off.

Cogito 14y ago

Should age be included in a post's title? In most cases, the age can be disclosed in the comments without losing any information, and in the process removing any 'negative' connotations. I posted something on the thread that started this whole dance a day or so ago, however it probably merits further expansion. Most arguments that are 'pro' age disclosure boil down to "We should treat younger members of the community differently". This comes in many forms, like how we should be supportive, how we should mentor the next generation, and how teenagers are often insecure. I agree with them, at least in general. Arguments 'against' age disclosure have a few flavours; some say that we should treat posts based on merit, that we should not discriminate based on age, but mostly it comes down to "Posts with the age in the title are 'gaming' the system (purposefully or not)" and the meta-argument that such posts encourage talking about community instead of the post. I agree with this side as well. The thing is, placing your age in the title of your post is link-baity. It may be unintentional or it may be coolly calculated, but in most cases if you remove that piece of information the post title is entirely uninteresting. So we have two types of posts to consider. The first are those posts where the age of the person involved contributes to how interesting the post is to HN. A completely fabricated example: "12 year-old entrepreneur youngest funded by YC". The second type of post are those where the age of the person involved contributes to how the HN community responds to the post. A young developer's first app would fall into this category. In the first case, I believe this is useful information to have in the post title. In the second this is useful information, however I do not believe it is useful in the post title. For these posts, I would much rather see the age included as a comment on the post. In any post that use of age in the title gets called out for being 'link-baity', 'manipulative' or 'gaming the system' the main counterargument is that knowing the age helps the community know how to respond to the post. The age can be removed from the post title, and placed in the comments, addressing both major concerns. [edit] improved summary.

DanBC 14y ago
I'm pretty sure that you do not think the correct response to a title including an age is to rant at the poster, to be rude and aggressive. It's possible to express dissatisfaction with a title and to encourage better posting habits without being a jerk. I agree with your summary. The problem isn't with HN being jerks to young people. The problem is with HN being jerks to anyone.

ScottWhigham 14y ago

Getting young people into science and technology is the single greatest professional duty any technologist has. What? I don't understand this at all. The "single greatest professional duty any technologist" has is unique to that "technologist". If, for example, I'm a 23yo kid who just graduated uni and in my first job, do you think for a second that I give a #$(* about "getting young people into science and technology"? Of course not. I'm so busy trying to figure basic life out that I don't have time for that sort of thing. If I'm a 33yo dad who wants to start my own business, I don't care one whit about 'getting young people into science and technology' b/c, between working 60 hours a week and changing my kids' diapers, I'm sleeping. Good for teens - glad for them - but this statement is just silly.

BlackJack 14y ago
I'm a 19 year old and when I got into college I remember thinking that I would love to interview prospective students after I graduated. Maybe you don't care about mentoring young people, but there are certainly many, many people who care a lot about that.
- ScottWhigham 14y ago
  Maybe you don't care about mentoring young people I carefully crafted my reply and for you to mistakenly read that into it made me go back and re-read my reply. I don't see where you get that I say that I "don't care about mentoring young people". Please take the time to point out where/what part I seem to imply that I don't care about mentoring young people. Actually, hell, I'll make it easier for you: point out where I state my opinion about what I prefer at all. Please - before you misquote, misunderstand, and then slag someone, take the time to re-read what they've written. Maybe it's your reading comprehension that was the problem rather than their post. And besides, "there are certainly many, many people who care a lot about" (insert anything ever here). There always has been and always will be. Stating the obvious doesn't really help here.
  - BlackJack 14y ago
    The part that got me to think that was when you said: > I don't care one whit about 'getting young people into science and technology Sorry if I misunderstood, and maybe we're just arguing between "mentoring" and "getting young people into tech," but I was referring to your sentiment as opposed to some exact wording.

mmanfrin 14y ago

Two cents: I worry that we run the risk of acquiring that awful trend of reddit's to append some personal relation to every post (e.g. "My Brother did this...", "My SO made me a cake", etc) which has become a terribly abused trope. The user account of the 14 year old kid who posted the Show HN that prompted this was a brand new account. The App Author was listed under a different name than the user account seemed to suggest. It screamed 'manipulation' to me. I'm all for encouraging younger developers, but at a certain point you have to step back and evaluate whether we're promoting things based on merit or a sense of communal nepotism.

zmitri 14y ago

In a lot of communities, the "this is my first post" is often celebrated. On HN it definitely is not, which is kind of strange. Glad you put this out there danilo.

olivier1664 14y ago
Maybe a question of size. In a small communities, everybody knows everybody. Here, it is not the case, we do not look the persons, just the result.

trishume 14y ago

I'm 16 and Things I've written have made the front page twice, both times without mentioning my age. As a teenager, it feels really good to make the front page or #1 with no "omg they're young" bonus points. Granted, it is encouraging to get bonus up votes for being young and achieving something.

jsonmez 14y ago

Let's treat all fellow human beings this way. We are all kids at heart. We are all seeking approval. Why admonish or dismiss anyone? What good does it do? I don't mean to diminish from your point, because I think it is absolutely correct.

jacquesm 14y ago

It's not just the blog article. It's also the attitude of people that will berate a youngster for being young and going out on a limb to show what they've made and making the mistake of telling us their age. That age thing is not a qualifier of pride, it's a guide to the mental state and the amount of experience the poster has. What amazes me most is that after seeing how one young developer gets treated that the next one still dares to post at all. Danilocampos is exactly right. As far as career advice or tech advice, if you think I can contribute regardless of age feel free to contact me as well, j@ww.com . I can't promise to always be immediately available but I'll do my best.

luisivan 14y ago

I can't agree more. I started my first project, Asturix, a Linux distribution, at age 12. I have found all kind of complications, most of them related with being young. I live in Spain, where there are a lot of prejudices against youth. Also, the educational system here doesn't empower any "21 century" value such as creativity or inspiration. Fortunately, the situation is changing thanks to the media and other young entrepreneurs and I are starting to be famous in Spain. On the other hand, working and studying in Spain at the same time is really, really, really hard. Oh, and we have a youth unemployment rate of 54%. Right now I'm 17 and have founded a couple companies, what has been really hard due to legal issues - creating a company in Spain being underage is practically illegal. I have also started an incubator for hackers from 12 to 18 so they can create their projects in a easier way. This is a beautiful age for discovering your passion, but if people screw you out it can be a difficult one. The talent is there, but we have to let it grow.

dragos2 14y ago

I read a couple of days ago a blog post written by a 17 years old in which he was stating a rather interesting fact. He was saying he prefers to omit mentioning his age on forums and discussion boards (such as HN) because he wants to be critiqued for his work regardless of his age. I found that to be incredibly accurate. Most of the kids want to just show-off their projects, but there are still a lot of them who want genuine critique. So, if you want to get real opinions about your project and you post on HN or reddit, you should put on your big boy pants.