6 ms·

They're working on something new, and all the office hours I had with them were about that. They're not even in our database of companies as InstallMonetizer b

by pg 14y ago

They're working on something new, and all the office hours I had with them were about that. They're not even in our database of companies as InstallMonetizer but as the new thing. (I'm not sure if I can say the name because it may not be launched yet.) I knew they had some previous product that was called a Windows installer, but I don't think we ever talked about what it did. The whole world of Windows software seems pretty grim, and when people get something for free or cheap they're often willing to click through a bunch of buttons to get it, but as far as I can tell IM isn't actually misleading anyone. E.g. as far as I can tell it's no worse than all the upsells people have to click through to register domains on GoDaddy.

SandB0x 14y ago
Fair enough. It does come across on http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php that the product is funded/endorsed by Y Combinator though.
kruipen 14y ago
I think this clarifies the whole thing: pg doesn't mind that much making Windows ecosystem a bit shittier. Not doing it purposefully, but also not feeling too bad if that is a side effect. Edit: spelling
darknoon 14y ago
Thanks for the update, pg. I'm glad they're looking at a different avenue. While we can debate the particulars about whether or not certain windows installer ride-alongs or all of them are scammy, I don't think it's a valuable business. Comparing to GoDaddy doesn't make it sound better via association. Hope to see something more awesome from these folks soon.
jessedhillon 14y ago
You're a much more patient and understanding person than I am, pg. My initial reaction to pretty much every comment here is "Peanut gallery -- start your own incubator, or just accomplish one noteworthy thing in your life." As a non-pg entity, I feel vicarious indignation. Who are these random nobodies who think they're entitled to question how/where you spend your time and effort? And the people who get up on their soapbox about the ethics of YC or how you've tacitly endorsed deceptive practices? Ugh... eff the eff off EDIT: to head off the obvious criticism, yes I do think there are legitimate questions about IM's business model. My point is: show some humility and circumspection when asking them. Unless you've had to earn $1 directly from a customer (no boss managing and organizing your work) you're an outsider looking in at a completely different universe. Act accordingly.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  I never really like these type of arguments. For example if I believe a doctor is acting unethically is it wrong for me to call him out because I don't have a medical license? Sure, there may be factors here we don't understand here but I think now would be an excellent time to unveil whatever grand plan they have to head off the PR shitstorm this is in the process of creating. As I have mentioned elsewhere YC have gained significant nerd-cred which has no doubt been beneficial to them. This seems to be largely because they appear as a company that has strong driving principles about the sort of changes they want to see in the world.
  - jessedhillon 14y ago
    For example if I believe a doctor is acting unethically is it wrong for me to call him out because I don't have a medical license? No it doesn't mean that. What it means is that you, as a non-doctor, should excercise some discretion and humility wen choosing your words. Expressing harsh condemnation and judgment when you have a small piece of the picture is an unbelievable asshole move. None of these Tough Guys throwing around words like "crapware" and "spammer" would ever call anyone out like this in public, I guarantee it -- it's all keyboard courage and nerdrage. This seems to be largely because they appear as a company that has strong driving principles about the sort of changes they want to see in the world. IMO it's more due to the fact that YC asks for nerds to come as they are -- the entry process asks you how you're a hacker, and if you're selected you get an interview where pg wants you to geek out with him about your product. No flashy pitches or navigating social networks to get the right intro -- it's a process that cuts out all the BS that doesn't appeal to nerds. The idea that there is some violated goodwill is just backwards rationalization. And it doesn't change my point, which is, essentially: who are you to question where YC invests?
    - nullymcnull 14y ago
      who are you to question where YC invests? A free man, in a free country, on a message forum where all are free to post their opinions?
- 14y ago
TeMPOraL 14y ago
Thanks for the update. I hope that whatever new they're working on will be less grey than this, and wish them the best of luck! pg, the world of Windows software is grim, but mostly it's because majority of users are not tech-savvy. It's not that they are willing or not to click through buttons, they simply don't know what they're doing. I've seen this countless of times, and cleaned up many more computers from the results of such installations. IM might not be misleading anyone, but it's mostly because you cannot mislead a person who doesn't even listen to you. All in all, whether or not IM will make Windows software space worse depends strongly on how they'll select the advertisers. It's a lot of trust to be put in a company, so no wonder people are sceptical. I also think that GoDaddy is a very low standard to compare to, much, much lower than what we came to expect from YC startups. (EDIT: spelling)
jiggy2011 14y ago
I somewhat disagree that this is "no worse than all the upsells people have to click through to register domains on GoDaddy" Although admittedly I have no idea what GoDaddy's checkout procedure is like since I have honestly never used it, maybe it is especially terrible in which case that is not a glowing reflection on this software.. However, thinking of less technical users here. When you are in the mode to buy something , you are probably prepared for an upsell at some point and know what to look out for. When installing something on your computer, a less savvy user is likely not knowledgeable enough to understand the implications of something extra being installed on their computer with often full administrative privileges. They are also unlikely to understand the difference between an extra system component that must be installed for technical reasons (.Net, DirectX etc) and some third party software that is completely separate and not required.
jval 14y ago
pg, I think you should make this point clear in your OP. The reason I say this is that I don't think the majority of the indignation towards InstallMonetizer was around the fact that they do what they do, but rather the fact that YC appeared to have endorsed their behaviour. I think it would come as a kick in the guts for a lot of people who slaved away at 'big ideas' only to get rejected for YC in favour of a company like InstallMonetizer. I don't think the average HN user is really interested in having InstallMonetizer change their business practices (it seems futile to form a witch hunt against one of many companies). Currently, the OP above makes it looks as though YC did invest in InstallMonetizer and that you endorse their current practices and are defending them against the mass of hate. I think a better way of handling this would be to make it clear that engaging in questionable business practices is not the way to get funded by YC, and distance yourself as much as possible from these guys. Just my two cents, FWIW.
dgunn 14y ago
I suspect people registering a domain on GoDaddy will have a much higher probability of being technically inclined and able to know what to pay for and what they don't need. Further, GoDaddy will recommend products which are relevant to someone who does or will be managing a website etc.. This is worse than that. I know the types of people who have browsers full of ask.com/aol/etc toolbars. They aren't technically inclined. They don't even recall how those toolbars ever came to be there and they never wanted them. They aren't able to see through the tricks. They want to download software. They know that's the goal. Installers simply have to keep offering them opportunities to download software and they'll keep agreeing to it to achieve their goal.
jaredsohn 14y ago
I think the right thing to do here would be to ask them to remove mention of YCombinator from their website and not use it in press mentions. At the moment, their website states: "We are a YCombinator company (YCW2012) and are backed by some of the most prestigious investors in the silicon valley."
zeropointmodule 14y ago
Any comparison involving "no worse" and GoDaddy does not have the intended effect...

by pg 14y ago

SandB0x 14y ago

Fair enough. It does come across on http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php that the product is funded/endorsed by Y Combinator though.

kruipen 14y ago

I think this clarifies the whole thing: pg doesn't mind that much making Windows ecosystem a bit shittier. Not doing it purposefully, but also not feeling too bad if that is a side effect. Edit: spelling

darknoon 14y ago

Thanks for the update, pg. I'm glad they're looking at a different avenue. While we can debate the particulars about whether or not certain windows installer ride-alongs or all of them are scammy, I don't think it's a valuable business. Comparing to GoDaddy doesn't make it sound better via association. Hope to see something more awesome from these folks soon.

jessedhillon 14y ago

You're a much more patient and understanding person than I am, pg. My initial reaction to pretty much every comment here is "Peanut gallery -- start your own incubator, or just accomplish one noteworthy thing in your life." As a non-pg entity, I feel vicarious indignation. Who are these random nobodies who think they're entitled to question how/where you spend your time and effort? And the people who get up on their soapbox about the ethics of YC or how you've tacitly endorsed deceptive practices? Ugh... eff the eff off EDIT: to head off the obvious criticism, yes I do think there are legitimate questions about IM's business model. My point is: show some humility and circumspection when asking them. Unless you've had to earn $1 directly from a customer (no boss managing and organizing your work) you're an outsider looking in at a completely different universe. Act accordingly.

jiggy2011 14y ago
I never really like these type of arguments. For example if I believe a doctor is acting unethically is it wrong for me to call him out because I don't have a medical license? Sure, there may be factors here we don't understand here but I think now would be an excellent time to unveil whatever grand plan they have to head off the PR shitstorm this is in the process of creating. As I have mentioned elsewhere YC have gained significant nerd-cred which has no doubt been beneficial to them. This seems to be largely because they appear as a company that has strong driving principles about the sort of changes they want to see in the world.
- jessedhillon 14y ago
  For example if I believe a doctor is acting unethically is it wrong for me to call him out because I don't have a medical license? No it doesn't mean that. What it means is that you, as a non-doctor, should excercise some discretion and humility wen choosing your words. Expressing harsh condemnation and judgment when you have a small piece of the picture is an unbelievable asshole move. None of these Tough Guys throwing around words like "crapware" and "spammer" would ever call anyone out like this in public, I guarantee it -- it's all keyboard courage and nerdrage. This seems to be largely because they appear as a company that has strong driving principles about the sort of changes they want to see in the world. IMO it's more due to the fact that YC asks for nerds to come as they are -- the entry process asks you how you're a hacker, and if you're selected you get an interview where pg wants you to geek out with him about your product. No flashy pitches or navigating social networks to get the right intro -- it's a process that cuts out all the BS that doesn't appeal to nerds. The idea that there is some violated goodwill is just backwards rationalization. And it doesn't change my point, which is, essentially: who are you to question where YC invests?
  - nullymcnull 14y ago
    who are you to question where YC invests? A free man, in a free country, on a message forum where all are free to post their opinions?
14y ago

TeMPOraL 14y ago

Thanks for the update. I hope that whatever new they're working on will be less grey than this, and wish them the best of luck! pg, the world of Windows software is grim, but mostly it's because majority of users are not tech-savvy. It's not that they are willing or not to click through buttons, they simply don't know what they're doing. I've seen this countless of times, and cleaned up many more computers from the results of such installations. IM might not be misleading anyone, but it's mostly because you cannot mislead a person who doesn't even listen to you. All in all, whether or not IM will make Windows software space worse depends strongly on how they'll select the advertisers. It's a lot of trust to be put in a company, so no wonder people are sceptical. I also think that GoDaddy is a very low standard to compare to, much, much lower than what we came to expect from YC startups. (EDIT: spelling)

jiggy2011 14y ago

I somewhat disagree that this is "no worse than all the upsells people have to click through to register domains on GoDaddy" Although admittedly I have no idea what GoDaddy's checkout procedure is like since I have honestly never used it, maybe it is especially terrible in which case that is not a glowing reflection on this software.. However, thinking of less technical users here. When you are in the mode to buy something , you are probably prepared for an upsell at some point and know what to look out for. When installing something on your computer, a less savvy user is likely not knowledgeable enough to understand the implications of something extra being installed on their computer with often full administrative privileges. They are also unlikely to understand the difference between an extra system component that must be installed for technical reasons (.Net, DirectX etc) and some third party software that is completely separate and not required.

jval 14y ago

pg, I think you should make this point clear in your OP. The reason I say this is that I don't think the majority of the indignation towards InstallMonetizer was around the fact that they do what they do, but rather the fact that YC appeared to have endorsed their behaviour. I think it would come as a kick in the guts for a lot of people who slaved away at 'big ideas' only to get rejected for YC in favour of a company like InstallMonetizer. I don't think the average HN user is really interested in having InstallMonetizer change their business practices (it seems futile to form a witch hunt against one of many companies). Currently, the OP above makes it looks as though YC did invest in InstallMonetizer and that you endorse their current practices and are defending them against the mass of hate. I think a better way of handling this would be to make it clear that engaging in questionable business practices is not the way to get funded by YC, and distance yourself as much as possible from these guys. Just my two cents, FWIW.

dgunn 14y ago

I suspect people registering a domain on GoDaddy will have a much higher probability of being technically inclined and able to know what to pay for and what they don't need. Further, GoDaddy will recommend products which are relevant to someone who does or will be managing a website etc.. This is worse than that. I know the types of people who have browsers full of ask.com/aol/etc toolbars. They aren't technically inclined. They don't even recall how those toolbars ever came to be there and they never wanted them. They aren't able to see through the tricks. They want to download software. They know that's the goal. Installers simply have to keep offering them opportunities to download software and they'll keep agreeing to it to achieve their goal.

jaredsohn 14y ago

I think the right thing to do here would be to ask them to remove mention of YCombinator from their website and not use it in press mentions. At the moment, their website states: "We are a YCombinator company (YCW2012) and are backed by some of the most prestigious investors in the silicon valley."

zeropointmodule 14y ago

Any comparison involving "no worse" and GoDaddy does not have the intended effect...