4 ms·

Funny how all roads lead to a discussion of the merits of vi/m. At least some of you now understand that these tools were designed as you see them today becaus

Funny how all roads lead to a discussion of the merits of vi/m. At least some of you now understand that these tools were designed as you see them today because they were dealing with crippled hardware (from today's vantage point). There was no magical study on keystroke efficiency at the inception. They had lemons and made lemonade. Now, quit arguing and get back to reading Facebook! Yup, that's me ducking in the corner.

stcredzero 14y ago
HJKL is madness. It's more proof that "The Inmates are Running the Asylum" when it comes to usability. We programmers are so much more apt at remapping functions to arbitrary inputs/symbols that we continue to put up with things like this, decades after the reason disappears. This is also why we need to make special efforts at understanding non-programmer users.
- alecdbrooks 14y ago
  I do agree that "we need to make special efforts at understanding non-programmer users." But this isn't a good example since Vim is a specialized editor mostly recommended for programers. If the general-purpose text editors (and word processors) required you to use HJKL, you might have a point. (EDIT: I misunderstood stcredzero's argument. See stcredzero's comment below.) It's also true that functions can be mapped to arbitrary inputs and systems. But I think there's value in learning HJKL rather than remapping them: 1. They're on the home row, giving a slight speed benefit for these commonly used actions. 2. You get used to the movement keys that will be the default in any copy of Vi/m and quite a few other tools. (HJKL, along with WASD and dedicated arrow keys, is probably the most common mapping of left, right, up, and down to keys on a keyboard.)
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    > But this isn't a good example since Vim is a specialized editor mostly recommended for programers. Arrgh. This is an example of why programmers are different, not of a bad interface for ordinary people. Thanks for considering me so daft as to think non-programmers people use VIM.
    - alecdbrooks 14y ago
      I apologize for my (unintended) insult. I should have read your comment more carefully. I still disagree that HJKL is madness, however. It's not the best possible scheme, but it is reasonable to keep it for its remaining advantages.
- rubyrescue 14y ago
  i have tried both and hjkl is just faster. it's "madness" the same way having 88 white unmarked keys on a piano is "madness" to someone who doesn't play.
  - MartinCron 14y ago
    88 white unmarked keys on a piano would be madness. You forgot the black keys.
    - chimeracoder 14y ago
      The piano/keyboard isn't my main instrument, but I'm not sure that the color of the keys would make a huge difference. Practiced/professional violinists, for example, don't use sight to figure out how to place their fingers, and pianists don't even have to worry about tuning the way violinists do.
      - lnanek2 14y ago
        The two people above you are pretty much saying the same thing. Piano keys being unmarked and making sense to pianists as the best way was being used as proof that using keys not marked with arrows could be the best way for editors. I'll throw in with agreeing as well, my piano teacher hated when music had finger numbers on it and things like that, using them just slowed you down and messed you up, especially when the hands changed positions. Labeled piano keys would be bad because it would prevent people from learning the right way to play.
      - charonn0 14y ago
        In many (most?) early pianos the colors were reversed.
    - andrewflnr 14y ago
      You would only really need a reference point every octave. I've always felt that having "sharp notes" on, basically, their own row of the piano was silly, and I've speculated on how one could design a sane keyboard that puts all (musical) keys on an equal basis... In short, the black (physical) keys are part of the madness. ;)

stcredzero 14y ago

HJKL is madness. It's more proof that "The Inmates are Running the Asylum" when it comes to usability. We programmers are so much more apt at remapping functions to arbitrary inputs/symbols that we continue to put up with things like this, decades after the reason disappears. This is also why we need to make special efforts at understanding non-programmer users.

alecdbrooks 14y ago
I do agree that "we need to make special efforts at understanding non-programmer users." But this isn't a good example since Vim is a specialized editor mostly recommended for programers. If the general-purpose text editors (and word processors) required you to use HJKL, you might have a point. (EDIT: I misunderstood stcredzero's argument. See stcredzero's comment below.) It's also true that functions can be mapped to arbitrary inputs and systems. But I think there's value in learning HJKL rather than remapping them: 1. They're on the home row, giving a slight speed benefit for these commonly used actions. 2. You get used to the movement keys that will be the default in any copy of Vi/m and quite a few other tools. (HJKL, along with WASD and dedicated arrow keys, is probably the most common mapping of left, right, up, and down to keys on a keyboard.)
- stcredzero 14y ago
  > But this isn't a good example since Vim is a specialized editor mostly recommended for programers. Arrgh. This is an example of why programmers are different, not of a bad interface for ordinary people. Thanks for considering me so daft as to think non-programmers people use VIM.
  - alecdbrooks 14y ago
    I apologize for my (unintended) insult. I should have read your comment more carefully. I still disagree that HJKL is madness, however. It's not the best possible scheme, but it is reasonable to keep it for its remaining advantages.
rubyrescue 14y ago
i have tried both and hjkl is just faster. it's "madness" the same way having 88 white unmarked keys on a piano is "madness" to someone who doesn't play.
- MartinCron 14y ago
  88 white unmarked keys on a piano would be madness. You forgot the black keys.
  - chimeracoder 14y ago
    The piano/keyboard isn't my main instrument, but I'm not sure that the color of the keys would make a huge difference. Practiced/professional violinists, for example, don't use sight to figure out how to place their fingers, and pianists don't even have to worry about tuning the way violinists do.
    - lnanek2 14y ago
      The two people above you are pretty much saying the same thing. Piano keys being unmarked and making sense to pianists as the best way was being used as proof that using keys not marked with arrows could be the best way for editors. I'll throw in with agreeing as well, my piano teacher hated when music had finger numbers on it and things like that, using them just slowed you down and messed you up, especially when the hands changed positions. Labeled piano keys would be bad because it would prevent people from learning the right way to play.
    - charonn0 14y ago
      In many (most?) early pianos the colors were reversed.
  - andrewflnr 14y ago
    You would only really need a reference point every octave. I've always felt that having "sharp notes" on, basically, their own row of the piano was silly, and I've speculated on how one could design a sane keyboard that puts all (musical) keys on an equal basis... In short, the black (physical) keys are part of the madness. ;)