4 ms·

If Haskell, Lisp and friends are so great for building large software systems then surely people are going to flock to them and do exactly that. And if that di

by bborud 14y ago

If Haskell, Lisp and friends are so great for building large software systems then surely people are going to flock to them and do exactly that. And if that didn't happen, of course the proponents of these languages would sit down and try to figure out why this wasn't happening. Right?

zxcdw 14y ago
Not necessarily. Other languages will borrow ideas from these languages and that way many strengths of functional programming can be applied in everyday code. I don't think there are many people who would outright claim that functional programming doesn't have benefits at all which could be used in imperative languages too.
Peaker 14y ago
Haskellers are aware of various downsides and disadvantages to using Haskell and are actively working to improve on those. Also, the FP complete company was created to answer that exact question and cater to commercial companies who want to use Haskell. They provide training, and survey them to see what is holding them back from using Haskell, and providing them with solutions.
wereHamster 14y ago
Education is a big part of the problem. When I attended university, we weren't even told that functional programming exists. Only later on, through one of my friends it was brought to my attention. And it's hard to change that mindset, particularly at the university I was. They are set to produce a constant stream of Java/.NET developers for the companies around them (large banks, in particular).
- PommeDeTerre 14y ago
  Which university was this, and which program?
  - wereHamster 14y ago
    The university in Lucerne, Switzerland. Hence the reference to large banks ;)
- James_Duval 14y ago
  Is this common? I'm taking the "Introduction To Programming Languages" at Coursera and we're using SML straight out of the gate. It's really fun and totally different from the Java and before that the basic AS/JS I experimented with. Do universities not tend to offer these types of courses? Is this an advantage of the free courses (relatively unpopular or obscure languages being taught for learning's sake) which paid courses can't or won't offer?
mej10 14y ago
http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
papsosouid 14y ago
>If Haskell, Lisp and friends are so great for building large software systems then surely people are going to flock to them and do exactly that No, I have seen no evidence to suggest that a majority of people will do the best thing when given the option. Popularity does not correlate well with quality. Or are you seriously suggesting "Transformers 19: BANG BANG EXPLOSIONS!!1" is the pinnacle of human artistic achievement? Those who realize how good haskell is are using it. Why would we stop and try to figure out why the majority are still watching Michael Bay sequels instead?
tikhonj 14y ago
That's assuming people are rational and willing to put up with large up-front costs on the promise of future returns. Haskell is different, and learning Haskell is closer to learning programming all over again than just picking up another algolish language. Most programmers don't even seem willing to do the latter, much less learn something truly novel. The people who do use Haskell professionally (e.g. Standard Charter or some number of hedge funds) seem to be very happy with it. Now, there are some core problems--largely with education and ecosystem maturity--that make Haskell harder to adopt. Recently, people have actually started working on both of these[1]. But neither is a quality of the language itself. [1]: http://fpcomplete.com/ http://fpcomplete.com/
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
lispm 14y ago
Check out GNU Emacs some time. Last I looked the standard distribution came with a million lines of Lisp code.

by bborud 14y ago

zxcdw 14y ago

Not necessarily. Other languages will borrow ideas from these languages and that way many strengths of functional programming can be applied in everyday code. I don't think there are many people who would outright claim that functional programming doesn't have benefits at all which could be used in imperative languages too.

Peaker 14y ago

Haskellers are aware of various downsides and disadvantages to using Haskell and are actively working to improve on those. Also, the FP complete company was created to answer that exact question and cater to commercial companies who want to use Haskell. They provide training, and survey them to see what is holding them back from using Haskell, and providing them with solutions.

wereHamster 14y ago

Education is a big part of the problem. When I attended university, we weren't even told that functional programming exists. Only later on, through one of my friends it was brought to my attention. And it's hard to change that mindset, particularly at the university I was. They are set to produce a constant stream of Java/.NET developers for the companies around them (large banks, in particular).

PommeDeTerre 14y ago
Which university was this, and which program?
- wereHamster 14y ago
  The university in Lucerne, Switzerland. Hence the reference to large banks ;)
James_Duval 14y ago
Is this common? I'm taking the "Introduction To Programming Languages" at Coursera and we're using SML straight out of the gate. It's really fun and totally different from the Java and before that the basic AS/JS I experimented with. Do universities not tend to offer these types of courses? Is this an advantage of the free courses (relatively unpopular or obscure languages being taught for learning's sake) which paid courses can't or won't offer?

mej10 14y ago

http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html

papsosouid 14y ago

>If Haskell, Lisp and friends are so great for building large software systems then surely people are going to flock to them and do exactly that No, I have seen no evidence to suggest that a majority of people will do the best thing when given the option. Popularity does not correlate well with quality. Or are you seriously suggesting "Transformers 19: BANG BANG EXPLOSIONS!!1" is the pinnacle of human artistic achievement? Those who realize how good haskell is are using it. Why would we stop and try to figure out why the majority are still watching Michael Bay sequels instead?

tikhonj 14y ago

That's assuming people are rational and willing to put up with large up-front costs on the promise of future returns. Haskell is different, and learning Haskell is closer to learning programming all over again than just picking up another algolish language. Most programmers don't even seem willing to do the latter, much less learn something truly novel. The people who do use Haskell professionally (e.g. Standard Charter or some number of hedge funds) seem to be very happy with it. Now, there are some core problems--largely with education and ecosystem maturity--that make Haskell harder to adopt. Recently, people have actually started working on both of these[1]. But neither is a quality of the language itself. [1]: http://fpcomplete.com/ http://fpcomplete.com/

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

lispm 14y ago

Check out GNU Emacs some time. Last I looked the standard distribution came with a million lines of Lisp code.