6 ms·

Oh, another old counter-culture guy who egged on an impressionable kid. How sad that Aaron's attempt to strike a blow like those of his mentors was so squalid.

Oh, another old counter-culture guy who egged on an impressionable kid. How sad that Aaron's attempt to strike a blow like those of his mentors was so squalid. Kids, I'll tell you since these heroes won't: if your "hack" involves picking locks, buying multiple computers to bypass a download limit, and violating terms of use, it's not a movement and it is not heroic. Don't let these lazy essayits lead you down this path. Find your own cause, and make it worthwhile.

jacquesm 14y ago
I have an extremely pointy and very heartfelt remark that I'd like to throw your way but (1) I am trying very hard through all this to not let my seething anger get the better of me and (2) it would (rightly) get my account banned so in the interest of better judgement I've only downvoted you.
- asswartz 14y ago
  Why do you get so butthurt every time someone says something remotely negative about your hero?
- kandahar 14y ago
  I am angry too, but at the mentors who accepted the worship of a troubled young man and led him to this. Why don't you make your pointed comment and risk a ban? Please, I can take it and it would be refreshing to see instead of all this crap directed at law enforcement. And if you are not creeper out by some of Aaron's mentors fondly recalling his cuteness, you are not paying attention to what was going on there. And now his corpse is being repurposed for several agendas. I'll go first and welcome a ban: fuck that.
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    > I am angry too, but at the mentors who accepted the worship of a troubled young man and led him to this. Those mentors are mentors because they treat people regardless of age as equals. Yes, Aaron had his troubles. But he wasn't guided by those mentors as much as that he was guiding them. There was more give-and-take there than you give credit for, you are reducing Aaron to the level of an incompetent, he was anything but. You are also making the assumption that anybody could have stopped Aaron from doing what he felt and thought was right, I think Taren's address at the end of the linked post has few things to say about that. > Why don't you make your pointed comment and risk a ban? Because well over 3 decades ago I decided that there had been enough undirected anger in my life and I figured out I should put that energy to constructive uses. The whole JSTOR affair and the very unfortunate conclusion (to put it extremely mildly) has taught me something about myself, that the lid on the volcano is not as solid as those 30 years have made me believe. Dumb, insensitive and uninformed remarks about this upset me and I have to work just a little harder to stay on the right side of the line. So I won't be taunted by you. The last time someone successfully taunted me (highschool bully, he ended in hospital and I got a 3 month suspension) it was a disaster. I learned my lesson, and chose to develop in a different direction. > Please, I can take it and it would be refreshing to see instead of all this crap directed at law enforcement. Have you been paying attention at all? That 'crap' is grounded in a deep dissatisfaction with the way this case has been handled, by people at varying levels of power, including some in government. It has already led to an amendment proposal of the law. > And if you are not creeper out by some of Aaron's mentors fondly recalling his cuteness, you are not paying attention to what was going on there. And now his corpse is being repurposed for several agendas. I think you are entirely missing the point here. Aaron killing himself has woken up a large number of people to the fact that this has gone too far. > I'll go first and welcome a ban: fuck that. Too bad because I'd be happy to open your eyes a bit more, I think that's more productive.
    - Anechoic 14y ago
      That 'crap' is grounded in a deep dissatisfaction with the way this case has been handled, by people at varying levels of power, including some in government. Off topic, but ftr the record "the way this case has been handled" is what has me angry. This "crap" has been happening for thirty years, but no one in the tech community (except perhaps Aaron Swartz) cared when it has happening to poor, mostly minority folks. Have you been paying attention at all? Yes. For a very long time. edit: fixed error pointed out by jacquesm
      - jacquesm 14y ago
        > This "crap" has been happening for thirty years, but no one in the tech community (except perhaps Aaron Swartz) didn't care when it has happening to poor, mostly minority folks. You probably meant 'cared' not 'didn't care'. I think lots of people care, but they are not capable of marshalling a significant amount of noise in the press. The press doesn't really do its job as the fourth estate when it comes to issues like these. > Yes. For a very long time. So have I, but I was stupid enough to get side-tracked somewhere along the line. I'm re-visiting that now, whatever it was that I did it resulted in me throwing my principles overboard thinking that I wasn't able to change things so I had better go with the flow. Worst mistake of my life, but not too late to fix.
        Anechoic 14y ago
        I think lots of people care, but they are not capable of marshalling a significant amount of noise in the press. Right now they have created a significant amount of noise in the press. And what we're mostly hearing is "fire Ortiz," "fire Heymann," "punish MIT," "punish JSTOR, and "reform CFAA" with "reform prosecutions for all" a distance sixth, if mentioned at all. Taren spoke about reforming the justice system, but only after the above list. And the press (at least NPR) has been talking about plea bargains in the context of drug and inner city crime and the leverage prosecutors have on defendants life. I'm fully on board with trying to fix the problem for all. I'm not down with trying to only fix the problems for friends of Lessig, Tufte and O'Reilly.
keithpeter 14y ago
I can understand why you are being down-voted here. The lad was being crushed by a machine that appears, to me, from outside the US, to be outrageously harsh. I personally would say (based on decades of trade union membership and action), 'don't go alone, random, but instead organise and take it one collective action at a time'. The young man in question may never have experienced collective action. It can be powerful.
- ahna 14y ago
  Ironic that we're only seeing collective action now, when it's too late to help him. Though we can, maybe, move the needle a bit and make such things less likely to happen again. I feel as if the tech community is still trying to figure out the collective action thing. Maybe it's because we don't have the history of unions* like many workers in hollywood/entertainment industry do. But when the tech community did act collectively to stop SOPA, it made a big difference. I hope we can do more of that. (* which is fine -- I don't think you can make the economic case for having them in the highly competitive tech job market. Unionization is more strongly justified in cases of bad working conditions, or a single employer with an effective monopoly on that type of job in the region)
- cgio 14y ago
  If I understand correctly, he was actively involved in the collective action against SOPA.

jacquesm 14y ago

I have an extremely pointy and very heartfelt remark that I'd like to throw your way but (1) I am trying very hard through all this to not let my seething anger get the better of me and (2) it would (rightly) get my account banned so in the interest of better judgement I've only downvoted you.

asswartz 14y ago
Why do you get so butthurt every time someone says something remotely negative about your hero?
kandahar 14y ago
I am angry too, but at the mentors who accepted the worship of a troubled young man and led him to this. Why don't you make your pointed comment and risk a ban? Please, I can take it and it would be refreshing to see instead of all this crap directed at law enforcement. And if you are not creeper out by some of Aaron's mentors fondly recalling his cuteness, you are not paying attention to what was going on there. And now his corpse is being repurposed for several agendas. I'll go first and welcome a ban: fuck that.
- jacquesm 14y ago
  > I am angry too, but at the mentors who accepted the worship of a troubled young man and led him to this. Those mentors are mentors because they treat people regardless of age as equals. Yes, Aaron had his troubles. But he wasn't guided by those mentors as much as that he was guiding them. There was more give-and-take there than you give credit for, you are reducing Aaron to the level of an incompetent, he was anything but. You are also making the assumption that anybody could have stopped Aaron from doing what he felt and thought was right, I think Taren's address at the end of the linked post has few things to say about that. > Why don't you make your pointed comment and risk a ban? Because well over 3 decades ago I decided that there had been enough undirected anger in my life and I figured out I should put that energy to constructive uses. The whole JSTOR affair and the very unfortunate conclusion (to put it extremely mildly) has taught me something about myself, that the lid on the volcano is not as solid as those 30 years have made me believe. Dumb, insensitive and uninformed remarks about this upset me and I have to work just a little harder to stay on the right side of the line. So I won't be taunted by you. The last time someone successfully taunted me (highschool bully, he ended in hospital and I got a 3 month suspension) it was a disaster. I learned my lesson, and chose to develop in a different direction. > Please, I can take it and it would be refreshing to see instead of all this crap directed at law enforcement. Have you been paying attention at all? That 'crap' is grounded in a deep dissatisfaction with the way this case has been handled, by people at varying levels of power, including some in government. It has already led to an amendment proposal of the law. > And if you are not creeper out by some of Aaron's mentors fondly recalling his cuteness, you are not paying attention to what was going on there. And now his corpse is being repurposed for several agendas. I think you are entirely missing the point here. Aaron killing himself has woken up a large number of people to the fact that this has gone too far. > I'll go first and welcome a ban: fuck that. Too bad because I'd be happy to open your eyes a bit more, I think that's more productive.
  - Anechoic 14y ago
    That 'crap' is grounded in a deep dissatisfaction with the way this case has been handled, by people at varying levels of power, including some in government. Off topic, but ftr the record "the way this case has been handled" is what has me angry. This "crap" has been happening for thirty years, but no one in the tech community (except perhaps Aaron Swartz) cared when it has happening to poor, mostly minority folks. Have you been paying attention at all? Yes. For a very long time. edit: fixed error pointed out by jacquesm
    - jacquesm 14y ago
      > This "crap" has been happening for thirty years, but no one in the tech community (except perhaps Aaron Swartz) didn't care when it has happening to poor, mostly minority folks. You probably meant 'cared' not 'didn't care'. I think lots of people care, but they are not capable of marshalling a significant amount of noise in the press. The press doesn't really do its job as the fourth estate when it comes to issues like these. > Yes. For a very long time. So have I, but I was stupid enough to get side-tracked somewhere along the line. I'm re-visiting that now, whatever it was that I did it resulted in me throwing my principles overboard thinking that I wasn't able to change things so I had better go with the flow. Worst mistake of my life, but not too late to fix.
      - Anechoic 14y ago
        I think lots of people care, but they are not capable of marshalling a significant amount of noise in the press. Right now they have created a significant amount of noise in the press. And what we're mostly hearing is "fire Ortiz," "fire Heymann," "punish MIT," "punish JSTOR, and "reform CFAA" with "reform prosecutions for all" a distance sixth, if mentioned at all. Taren spoke about reforming the justice system, but only after the above list. And the press (at least NPR) has been talking about plea bargains in the context of drug and inner city crime and the leverage prosecutors have on defendants life. I'm fully on board with trying to fix the problem for all. I'm not down with trying to only fix the problems for friends of Lessig, Tufte and O'Reilly.

keithpeter 14y ago

I can understand why you are being down-voted here. The lad was being crushed by a machine that appears, to me, from outside the US, to be outrageously harsh. I personally would say (based on decades of trade union membership and action), 'don't go alone, random, but instead organise and take it one collective action at a time'. The young man in question may never have experienced collective action. It can be powerful.

ahna 14y ago
Ironic that we're only seeing collective action now, when it's too late to help him. Though we can, maybe, move the needle a bit and make such things less likely to happen again. I feel as if the tech community is still trying to figure out the collective action thing. Maybe it's because we don't have the history of unions* like many workers in hollywood/entertainment industry do. But when the tech community did act collectively to stop SOPA, it made a big difference. I hope we can do more of that. (* which is fine -- I don't think you can make the economic case for having them in the highly competitive tech job market. Unionization is more strongly justified in cases of bad working conditions, or a single employer with an effective monopoly on that type of job in the region)
cgio 14y ago
If I understand correctly, he was actively involved in the collective action against SOPA.