5 ms·

This. While Ortiz will be the convenient (and rightful, I suppose) scapegoat in this instance, she's a symptom of the problem and not the cause. There are far

by polemic 14y ago

This. While Ortiz will be the convenient (and rightful, I suppose) scapegoat in this instance, she's a symptom of the problem and not the cause. There are far more fundamental problems with the DoJ, and until they're addressed (time and cost of mounting a defence, overly aggressive prosecutions, lack of oversight and discretion), nothing will change.

tunesmith 14y ago
I know that "don't treat the symptoms! treat the root cause!" is a common, almost unassailable sentiment, but lately I've been thinking there are problems with it. In order for it to be completely ineffective to "treat the symptom", it rests on the assumption that successfully treating the symptom will have zero effect on the cause behind it. A good example of that is taking pain meds to mask the pain of a knee injury. So then you go and run on it, and it makes the knee injury worse. You treated the symptom, and nothing changed. But there are definitely examples where treating the symptom does help. For instance, someone is temporarily depressed because of a unresolved situation in their lives. And yet, they cannot address the situation because the depression is in the way. So, they take an anti-depressant, and then maybe they can resolve their root cause, and then maybe they can go off the anti-depressant. Someone like an Ortiz, yes, is a symptom of a deeper problem. But I'm not convinced it is like the pain in a knee, where treating it will make zero difference. A bum knee isn't exacerbated by the pain. But the system may be exacerbated by Ortiz. A bum knee doesn't become a bit less bum from witnessing the taking of a pain med. But if the system recognizes an Ortiz downfall and receives a data point of what "going to far" is, then maybe that would have an effect. Probably not a sufficient effect, probably not enough, but I'm just pointing out that the fact that Ortiz is a symptom, is not, by itself, sufficient reason to believe that "nothing will change". Also not sufficient reason to believe that the symptom should not be treated.
- dhimes 14y ago
  I agree with your point, but treating the symptom must be done in such a way that the problem is still seen to be a problem. Another case in point was when the banking collapse hit, 'leaders' blamed things like 'excess greed' and so on, and dodged the real problem (IMHO). I'm afraid of throwing Ortiz to the wolves, washing our hands and saying, "Well, that's that."
  - praptak 14y ago
    This could have a somewhat chilling effect on other prosecutors although obviously only in cases against people who are somewhat popular or at least have the potential to become so. Poor people without outspoken friends would still get screwed. And the incentives for the prosecutors to "score big" would still remain.
  - pekk 14y ago
    What was 'the real problem' with the collapse, in your view?
    - dhimes 14y ago
      People smarter than I will have to figure that out. I'm talking about fairly soon after, before any investigation, we had politicians (McCain, for one) blaming "excess greed." I think this is a straw-man. The people in that job get paid to be greedy. You can't blame that, you have at least recognize that a system (regulations and work flow) is broken if it is so obtuse that people can't even know what decisions are in their own best interest.
      - tunesmith 14y ago
        I actually sort of see this as a real-life tragedy of the commons situation, although you kind of have to squint your eyes and wave your hands a bit to make it fit. The "common resource" is the client opportunity. The Nash equilibrium is every employee maximizing their own bonuses. The group optimum is the health of the company. It turned out that the individual self-interest did not align to what was good for the health of the companies. And in fact, that if they had cooperated and worked for the health of the companies, the employees may have ended up with higher individual payouts. This is exactly what the tragedy of the commons is about, and it's what apparently shook Greenspan to his core. So basically, it was the (predicted (over and over again)) failure of Objectivism.
        dhimes 14y ago
        That's an interesting take. I always thought that they didn't know that their actions would result in such disaster. I worry about the same non-effect with the gun-law blitz we're seeing after Sandy Hook. I worry that we're not attacking the problem- which may have more to do with mental health issues than gun laws.
btilly 14y ago
I only partially agree. My personal belief is that when prosecutors know that there is a chance of cases blowing up and destroying their careers, as is happening here, they have an incentive to be careful. And likely will be more careful for some time. This is a good thing - even if it helps much less than fixing the system. That is why in many, many corporate cultures there is an effective policy of responding to problems by publicly identifying a scapegoat and throwing the book at them. It is an easy action that makes a marginal difference for a short time. So this is better than nothing. Unfortunately it is not very good. First of all the deterrent effect is only temporary. Secondly you get two-tiered justice where defendants who seem likely to have the potential to raise such a firestorm of protest are more protected than defendants who don't. Thirdly the identification of a scapegoat relieves pressure to come up with a better fix. Therefore I am modestly in support of the current corrective process. I would like to see something better. I will encourage better things. I know the shortcomings of scapegoating. However it is better than nothing. If this is all that this case is likely to achieve, it was still a somewhat useful response.

by polemic 14y ago

tunesmith 14y ago

I know that "don't treat the symptoms! treat the root cause!" is a common, almost unassailable sentiment, but lately I've been thinking there are problems with it. In order for it to be completely ineffective to "treat the symptom", it rests on the assumption that successfully treating the symptom will have zero effect on the cause behind it. A good example of that is taking pain meds to mask the pain of a knee injury. So then you go and run on it, and it makes the knee injury worse. You treated the symptom, and nothing changed. But there are definitely examples where treating the symptom does help. For instance, someone is temporarily depressed because of a unresolved situation in their lives. And yet, they cannot address the situation because the depression is in the way. So, they take an anti-depressant, and then maybe they can resolve their root cause, and then maybe they can go off the anti-depressant. Someone like an Ortiz, yes, is a symptom of a deeper problem. But I'm not convinced it is like the pain in a knee, where treating it will make zero difference. A bum knee isn't exacerbated by the pain. But the system may be exacerbated by Ortiz. A bum knee doesn't become a bit less bum from witnessing the taking of a pain med. But if the system recognizes an Ortiz downfall and receives a data point of what "going to far" is, then maybe that would have an effect. Probably not a sufficient effect, probably not enough, but I'm just pointing out that the fact that Ortiz is a symptom, is not, by itself, sufficient reason to believe that "nothing will change". Also not sufficient reason to believe that the symptom should not be treated.

dhimes 14y ago
I agree with your point, but treating the symptom must be done in such a way that the problem is still seen to be a problem. Another case in point was when the banking collapse hit, 'leaders' blamed things like 'excess greed' and so on, and dodged the real problem (IMHO). I'm afraid of throwing Ortiz to the wolves, washing our hands and saying, "Well, that's that."
- praptak 14y ago
  This could have a somewhat chilling effect on other prosecutors although obviously only in cases against people who are somewhat popular or at least have the potential to become so. Poor people without outspoken friends would still get screwed. And the incentives for the prosecutors to "score big" would still remain.
- pekk 14y ago
  What was 'the real problem' with the collapse, in your view?
  - dhimes 14y ago
    People smarter than I will have to figure that out. I'm talking about fairly soon after, before any investigation, we had politicians (McCain, for one) blaming "excess greed." I think this is a straw-man. The people in that job get paid to be greedy. You can't blame that, you have at least recognize that a system (regulations and work flow) is broken if it is so obtuse that people can't even know what decisions are in their own best interest.
    - tunesmith 14y ago
      I actually sort of see this as a real-life tragedy of the commons situation, although you kind of have to squint your eyes and wave your hands a bit to make it fit. The "common resource" is the client opportunity. The Nash equilibrium is every employee maximizing their own bonuses. The group optimum is the health of the company. It turned out that the individual self-interest did not align to what was good for the health of the companies. And in fact, that if they had cooperated and worked for the health of the companies, the employees may have ended up with higher individual payouts. This is exactly what the tragedy of the commons is about, and it's what apparently shook Greenspan to his core. So basically, it was the (predicted (over and over again)) failure of Objectivism.
      - dhimes 14y ago
        That's an interesting take. I always thought that they didn't know that their actions would result in such disaster. I worry about the same non-effect with the gun-law blitz we're seeing after Sandy Hook. I worry that we're not attacking the problem- which may have more to do with mental health issues than gun laws.

btilly 14y ago

I only partially agree. My personal belief is that when prosecutors know that there is a chance of cases blowing up and destroying their careers, as is happening here, they have an incentive to be careful. And likely will be more careful for some time. This is a good thing - even if it helps much less than fixing the system. That is why in many, many corporate cultures there is an effective policy of responding to problems by publicly identifying a scapegoat and throwing the book at them. It is an easy action that makes a marginal difference for a short time. So this is better than nothing. Unfortunately it is not very good. First of all the deterrent effect is only temporary. Secondly you get two-tiered justice where defendants who seem likely to have the potential to raise such a firestorm of protest are more protected than defendants who don't. Thirdly the identification of a scapegoat relieves pressure to come up with a better fix. Therefore I am modestly in support of the current corrective process. I would like to see something better. I will encourage better things. I know the shortcomings of scapegoating. However it is better than nothing. If this is all that this case is likely to achieve, it was still a somewhat useful response.