5 ms·

6-12 months learning how to code? Good luck building a business on top of software written by a junior-level programmer. Even better luck expanding and scaling

6-12 months learning how to code? Good luck building a business on top of software written by a junior-level programmer. Even better luck expanding and scaling it if/when the time comes. It takes years to reach a reasonable level of competence in software development and on the order of a decade to master it. The problem with taking people's word on how much work they do when they are involved in marketing and the soft sides of business is that they have a disproportionaly (as compared to tech specialists) large amount of experience in marketing, negotiation and soft skills. Hence, they market themselves and over inflate how important their contribution is. In my experience.

InclinedPlane 14y ago
Yeah, pretty sure I take offense at the idea that my skills are equivalent to 6 months of crash education by a novice.
- cheald 14y ago
  I think that the point is more to demonstrate that "Hey, what I do takes a lot of skill and expertise, it's not just something you can throw together in a weekend". If an idea guy wouldn't be willing to invest at least a year to learn how to do it themselves, the idea's probably not as great as they think it is.
  - sharkweek 14y ago
    I am nearing the end of a "crash course" code lesson and have no intention of creating a company on this knowledge anytime in the near future. However... I would like to start building out some of those "annoying itch" ideas I have been sitting on and feel this enables me not only to prototype those out, but also allows me to have a half-intelligent conversation about my idea with someone who is a far better dev than me.
    - StavrosK 14y ago
      > However... I would like to start building out some of those "annoying itch" ideas I have been sitting on and feel this enables me not only to prototype those out, but also allows me to have a half-intelligent conversation about my idea with someone who is a far better dev than me. Oh man, I can't tell you how much instant respect this would gain an "idea guy" who contacted me for development. If you've already tried to prototype your idea, it would tell me that not only are you dedicated, but you will also not underestimate my contribution to the endeavour.
- rgbrenner 14y ago
  you're too easily offended. He only needs to learn enough to implement one idea: his own. Are you saying you are only capable of implementing one idea? Then maybe you should work on that, instead of taking offense at other people learning something new.
RossM 14y ago
> Good luck building a business on top of software written by a junior-level programmer. Even better luck expanding and scaling it if/when the time comes. You're absolutely right that this isn't scalable, but if you're just looking to validate your idea why shouldn't an app made by someone with a few months of experience suffice? Once you've proven there's value in the idea with the prototype, I imagine it'd be a lot easier to get more experienced developers on board.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  Depends on how complex your MVP is. The problem for non technical people is that they probably don't know how technically challenging the problem is. If it's a cat pictures site maybe a few months is enough to learn enough code to validate the idea. OTOH if you want to build a search engine maybe not so much.
- jrogers65 14y ago
  Yes and no. The problem is that most of the time the train of thought goes something like: * we already have a working product * we might aswell just add the features and visual polish we need and then launch as soon as possible * we have too much work to do to rewrite it * we can't refactor effectively because automated tests are mostly missing This results in the project becoming increasingly burdened with technical debt, where it becomes impossible to add new features without breaking something. The next step after this is usually a rewrite (which, given the low quality of developers already in the company, since nobody sane will work on such bad code, is also likely to fail, unless IT is restaffed completely). If the prototype is binned outright and the rewrite happens at the very start, I imagine that this can be avoided. Again, the trap here is that if the founder learned to write code in 6-12 months then they will be in that cute phase where they think that programming is easy and will not realise this. In short, having a senior developer on board (at the very least as a consultant) from the very start appears to be mandatory for long term success and minimisation of headaches. It's just what I've seen in the real world. Companies which went for quality from the very start grew rapidly. Those which attempted to minimise development costs at the expense of quality did not reach the heights.
  - 14y ago
badatmath 14y ago
Novice with 7 months of learning here. Quit my strategy consulting job to focus full time on learning to code, and am currently working on this project, built in Rails, on Heroku (it's all in Japanese, but the concept is similar to Hacker News/Reddit) http://www.daidake.com http://www.daidake.com Is this a bad idea? Would like to hear your thoughts. I have to admit I do feel like I'm in a little bit over my head, in that once/if I start getting a lot of users, I really have no idea how to scale this thing. I figure I need to start networking to find a brain that wants to team with me. I'm glad I've learned to program though, even if at a beginner level. If this fails (I already have a previous project that was a resounding failure), I can test out new projects easily.
- sebcat 14y ago
  > is this a bad idea? Well, what do you bring to the table? Do Japanese people read HN or reddit, or are they hindered by the language barrier? If they are, then it's not. Damn, ideas are never bad. As long as you do stuff, it's all good.
  - badatmath 14y ago
    Yeah, Japanese people are shockingly bad at English. The idea is for Japanese users that CAN read English to provide short summaries of interesting English articles. While the Japanese media is pretty open and liberal, there are still some topics of (possible)importance that never make it into the headlines there. The US media isn't necessarily great, but if you can read English, you have access to A LOT of info to form your own opinion.
- csgavino 14y ago
  Good job on learning how to program and actually releasing something! Your site looks okay but it is kinda slow. I suggest reading up on memcached (since you're using heroku).
  - badatmath 14y ago
    Thanks for the feedback. I will check it out!
caseysoftware 14y ago
Acknowledging that most people won't be a very useful developer at that stage, I always propose a different approach.. I tell the person to sketch out the how a user moves through the app, what they can do where, and how it should work. I even tell them to sketch out something basic with powerpoint. If they make it through those stages, it does two things: First, it demonstrates that they're relatively serious about the idea. More importantly, it lets them get a bunch of the oddities, inconsistencies, etc figured out before there's code involved. Making radical changes at that point is File->New.
- aaronblohowiak 14y ago
  First thing I tell people who ask "how would I get started?" 1) talk to people you think might want to use what you have in mind and see what they think and 2) build it on paper, because no matter who ends up building it, your ability to clearly express what you want in a very literal way is going to be key to getting what you want.

InclinedPlane 14y ago

Yeah, pretty sure I take offense at the idea that my skills are equivalent to 6 months of crash education by a novice.

cheald 14y ago
I think that the point is more to demonstrate that "Hey, what I do takes a lot of skill and expertise, it's not just something you can throw together in a weekend". If an idea guy wouldn't be willing to invest at least a year to learn how to do it themselves, the idea's probably not as great as they think it is.
- sharkweek 14y ago
  I am nearing the end of a "crash course" code lesson and have no intention of creating a company on this knowledge anytime in the near future. However... I would like to start building out some of those "annoying itch" ideas I have been sitting on and feel this enables me not only to prototype those out, but also allows me to have a half-intelligent conversation about my idea with someone who is a far better dev than me.
  - StavrosK 14y ago
    > However... I would like to start building out some of those "annoying itch" ideas I have been sitting on and feel this enables me not only to prototype those out, but also allows me to have a half-intelligent conversation about my idea with someone who is a far better dev than me. Oh man, I can't tell you how much instant respect this would gain an "idea guy" who contacted me for development. If you've already tried to prototype your idea, it would tell me that not only are you dedicated, but you will also not underestimate my contribution to the endeavour.
rgbrenner 14y ago
you're too easily offended. He only needs to learn enough to implement one idea: his own. Are you saying you are only capable of implementing one idea? Then maybe you should work on that, instead of taking offense at other people learning something new.

RossM 14y ago

> Good luck building a business on top of software written by a junior-level programmer. Even better luck expanding and scaling it if/when the time comes. You're absolutely right that this isn't scalable, but if you're just looking to validate your idea why shouldn't an app made by someone with a few months of experience suffice? Once you've proven there's value in the idea with the prototype, I imagine it'd be a lot easier to get more experienced developers on board.

jiggy2011 14y ago
Depends on how complex your MVP is. The problem for non technical people is that they probably don't know how technically challenging the problem is. If it's a cat pictures site maybe a few months is enough to learn enough code to validate the idea. OTOH if you want to build a search engine maybe not so much.
jrogers65 14y ago
Yes and no. The problem is that most of the time the train of thought goes something like: * we already have a working product * we might aswell just add the features and visual polish we need and then launch as soon as possible * we have too much work to do to rewrite it * we can't refactor effectively because automated tests are mostly missing This results in the project becoming increasingly burdened with technical debt, where it becomes impossible to add new features without breaking something. The next step after this is usually a rewrite (which, given the low quality of developers already in the company, since nobody sane will work on such bad code, is also likely to fail, unless IT is restaffed completely). If the prototype is binned outright and the rewrite happens at the very start, I imagine that this can be avoided. Again, the trap here is that if the founder learned to write code in 6-12 months then they will be in that cute phase where they think that programming is easy and will not realise this. In short, having a senior developer on board (at the very least as a consultant) from the very start appears to be mandatory for long term success and minimisation of headaches. It's just what I've seen in the real world. Companies which went for quality from the very start grew rapidly. Those which attempted to minimise development costs at the expense of quality did not reach the heights.
- 14y ago

badatmath 14y ago

Novice with 7 months of learning here. Quit my strategy consulting job to focus full time on learning to code, and am currently working on this project, built in Rails, on Heroku (it's all in Japanese, but the concept is similar to Hacker News/Reddit) http://www.daidake.com http://www.daidake.com Is this a bad idea? Would like to hear your thoughts. I have to admit I do feel like I'm in a little bit over my head, in that once/if I start getting a lot of users, I really have no idea how to scale this thing. I figure I need to start networking to find a brain that wants to team with me. I'm glad I've learned to program though, even if at a beginner level. If this fails (I already have a previous project that was a resounding failure), I can test out new projects easily.

sebcat 14y ago
> is this a bad idea? Well, what do you bring to the table? Do Japanese people read HN or reddit, or are they hindered by the language barrier? If they are, then it's not. Damn, ideas are never bad. As long as you do stuff, it's all good.
- badatmath 14y ago
  Yeah, Japanese people are shockingly bad at English. The idea is for Japanese users that CAN read English to provide short summaries of interesting English articles. While the Japanese media is pretty open and liberal, there are still some topics of (possible)importance that never make it into the headlines there. The US media isn't necessarily great, but if you can read English, you have access to A LOT of info to form your own opinion.
csgavino 14y ago
Good job on learning how to program and actually releasing something! Your site looks okay but it is kinda slow. I suggest reading up on memcached (since you're using heroku).
- badatmath 14y ago
  Thanks for the feedback. I will check it out!

caseysoftware 14y ago

Acknowledging that most people won't be a very useful developer at that stage, I always propose a different approach.. I tell the person to sketch out the how a user moves through the app, what they can do where, and how it should work. I even tell them to sketch out something basic with powerpoint. If they make it through those stages, it does two things: First, it demonstrates that they're relatively serious about the idea. More importantly, it lets them get a bunch of the oddities, inconsistencies, etc figured out before there's code involved. Making radical changes at that point is File->New.

aaronblohowiak 14y ago
First thing I tell people who ask "how would I get started?" 1) talk to people you think might want to use what you have in mind and see what they think and 2) build it on paper, because no matter who ends up building it, your ability to clearly express what you want in a very literal way is going to be key to getting what you want.