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Wow. Just, wow. Double the average is not enough? (36k in NY urban area) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest-income_urban_areas_in_the_United_States http://

Wow. Just, wow. Double the average is not enough? (36k in NY urban area) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest-income_urban_areas_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest-income_urban_areas_in_t...

daeken 14y ago
The takehome on $36k wouldn't even be able to cover my tiny (~180sqft) studio in Manhattan ($1700/mo), let alone a decent place. And that place was a steal. As I said, it's possible to live very cheaply in NYC, if you're willing to be far away from everything; I know people who travel an hour and a half each way to get to work, to save a few hundred dollars a month. I can't make that sort of tradeoff -- my time is just worth too much to me. Edit: I should note, this is the primary reason I left NYC about 6 months ago. I'm paying all of $1400/mo for a large house in CT now, and working from home. Much as I love it, living in NYC is just too crazy.
- yolesaber 14y ago
  I'm sorry my friend but that is hardly a "steal". Also, you can very easily live in Brooklyn or Queens for under 1.7k a month with a far larger place and only have a 15-20 minute commute. It is very possible to live comfortably in NYC but why people choose to live squished up in Manhattan is beyond me.
  - T-hawk 14y ago
    The best place to live in New York City is actually New Jersey. Hoboken and almost all of Jersey City are under 30 minutes from many Manhattan offices by the Path subway or bus or even ferry. Rent goes very roughly 25% cheaper than Manhattan for similar digs, everything from basement studios to ultramodern luxury towers. There's plenty of supermarkets and any other businesses you need. And access to the rest of the world via car or airport (Newark) is considerably easier from NJ. Bonus: NJ sales tax is less, and you dodge the NYC income and commuter taxes. I've lived on the NJ Gold Coast and commuted to Manhattan for basically my entire professional life, and pretty satisfied with it. My 15 minute ferry ride is just long enough to decompress and relax without getting bored. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Coast_(New_Jersey) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Coast_(New_Jersey) Whatever smelly downtrodden ghettoey reputation New Jersey once had is not at all universally true. Hoboken and downtown Jersey City are first-class modern neighborhoods. There's worse areas up into JC Heights and down to Bayonne, but by and large the region served by the Path is the equal of anything in Brooklyn/Queens.
  - achompas 14y ago
    How does one go about finding a great place in Brooklyn or Queens without getting fleeced by brokers?
- smartician 14y ago
  The monthly take home on $36k in NY would be $2,250 [1]. So after rent you'd have $550 for groceries etc. Sure, it wouldn't be a comfortable life, but definitely doable, especially without a car. I agree with you on the commute though. I'm paying almost $1,800 for a one bedroom in Silicon Valley just to be able to ride my bicycle to work. [1] http://www.adp.com/tools-and-resources/calculators-and-tools/payroll-calculators/salary-paycheck-calculator.aspx http://www.adp.com/tools-and-resources/calculators-and-tools...
  - zzzeek 14y ago
    paying $1700 a month in rent on $36K would be total insanity. The general rule is that rent should be no more than 25% of your income. On $550 a month after taxes and rent you'd not just have to pay for food (which can easily hit a few hundred a month if you aren't eating catfood), there is also: - utilities - clothing (employers appreciate this) - transportation (the NYC subway is now $2.25 (going to $2.50?) a ride, or a monthly unlimited is currently $104, so there's 1/5th of that 550) - phone bill (likely a very low end cellphone with limited use) - laundry (coin op machines can run up $20-$30 a month), if you have dry clean clothes then this is quite a bit more - medical ? does that $36K have health insurance as well? On a low-end insurance policy, the copay for a PCP visit is about $50, and if there's any kind of meds you need to take that can easily cost $50-100 a month. - renters insurance ? in case your apt. burns down, it's a good idea - any kind of occasional expenses that go over what's left, probably go on the credit card. So it's very likely there's 18-20% interest payments on a few thousand dollars going on at any given time as well. $550 a month after rent is really not workable for an active, functioning adult.
    - smartician 14y ago
      I'm not advocating the decision to spend this much on rent on such a small salary, I was just correcting the claim that $36k wouldn't even be enough to pay for a $1,700 apartment. Millions of people survive on less than $550 per month. Sure, you won't have your daily Starbucks, no cable TV, and your cell phone plan will most likely come from a low cost provider like Virgin Mobile. In a $36k job, you can probably get away with clothes from Kohl's or even the thrift store, and your apartment is probably not filled with expensive stuff so renter's insurance isn't that much of an issue.
- joonix 14y ago
  You're almost certainly trolling. If you are paying 1700 for a 180 sq ft studio (which is probably illegal), and think that's a steal, that's awful
  - daeken 14y ago
    No, I'm not trolling, it's not illegal, and yes, that was a steal. It was in a convenient location (15 minute walk to work), first floor, and in a nice (if a bit dangerous at times) area. Since I know people spending hundreds more for a slightly bigger place (maybe 240sqft) in a less convenient area, it absolutely was a steal; most of the places around me were more like $2k/mo.
    - tharax 14y ago
      1700 for 180ft, is a price almost 100 per 10 ft. if they have 240 ft and they're paying "hundreds more" that should be about right - it's not a steal. it might be average, but not a steal.
  - achompas 14y ago
    I can confirm this because (a) I too lived in a tiny studio in a super convenient area for a while and (b) after shopping around for a while I can confirm that $1.7k in Manhattan is definitely a steal.
  - mh_yam 14y ago
    Definitely not. I pay $1600 for a 250sqft studio in Manhattan. It's quite nice actually.
- dxbydt 14y ago
  This thread & the thread yesterday on cost of living in SF miss some vital, real-world data. Most people simply don't live like this. I worked 4 years in Goldman Sachs, downtown Manhattan. One thing every MD consistently told me was that only fools live in Manhattan proper. Every one of these MDs had multi-million net-worth, liquid even, & still took either LIRR or NJ Transit or lived in Brooklyn/Queens/Jersey City/Hoboken/across GWB & took the Path & A train & whatnot. I lived in Fort Lee in a comfy gated $900 1-bdrm & took a bus + the A train - very adequate. Now I live in the Bay Area & take the BART & am able to land $1.5K 2-bdrm houses in the east bay very easily, stone's throw from the bart. When I hear my colleagues complain about the insane $3K studio rents in Nob Hill SF, I don't know what to say. Live in the burbs, wake up an hour earlier & take the BART. Nob Hill can wait. Your best friend is the local realtor. Talk to her over a starbucks latte & she will tell you how the locals hack real estate.
  - Domenic_S 14y ago
    > am able to land $1.5K 2-bdrm houses in the east bay very easily Unless you're talking Oakland/Concord or the hwy 4 corridor, I call shenanigans.
    - dxbydt 14y ago
      If you want walking distance to Bart, I'm talking concord, walnut creek, pleasant hill. on a lucky day, orinda or lafayette even. If you have a family & want a nice large 3 bdrm with small yard, you can get one for under 2K in nearby San Ramon and take the BART commute bus to the actual BART...I know tons of people who do this everyday. I actually considered doing that myself but was able to land a nice albeit small 2brm with walking distance to bart. If you don't mind an additional 30 minutes of car commute time to the actual BART station, it dramatically opens up possibilities...Danville is very nice.
      - Domenic_S 14y ago
        Yeah no. I own a 2br home in Pleasant Hill. These 2 br SFH rentals for $1,500 you're talking about are a fantasy.
- scottmey 14y ago
  Sheesh! And that doesn't even come close to what some people pay. NYC > Manhattan. It's insane! I live 10 minute bike ride from Manhattan, and pay just under $500.00 a month w/ two roomates (GF and best friend) for the first two floors of a brownstone, plus basement and backyard. I've had about four apartments in the past 10 years in this range in my area, it really does pay to live just a little out of the way! I do pretty well for myself these days and am stashing around 50% of my income away. I feel like people who pay some of these whopping amounts of money don't even get to enjoy the true treasures of the city, and money is tied to everything. Stressful.
dinkumthinkum 14y ago
Why would that "wow" you. I'm confused by you. Many, many, people live in real poverty, live barely paycheck to paycheck, can only afford basically what is on the dollar menu. These people effect the average dramatically, and you think "doubling" that average is like some amazing number that someone would be crazy to think is not enough? ... Kind of a "wow" for me too. :)
- clarky07 14y ago
  I'm not the person you are responding to, but I suspect it is a matter of what is "enough". I suspect living in Manhattan is unnecessary and it is 100% luxury. Spending 1700 a month for a 180 sq ft studio seems beyond idiotic to me. 1700 is enough to cover the mortgage on a 380k house. 380k on a house = incredible mansion in 98% of America. In Nashville where I currently live (nice city btw) it gets you between 3500-5000 sq ft. In small town America it's even nicer. Especially with the remote and work from home options these days it seems absurd to pay so much for so little. (I understand not everyone can work from home, but you don't have to live in Manhattan)
  - Domenic_S 14y ago
    Once you're in the SF/NYC scene with your job, you are kind of stuck because there are no houses to buy for $380k anywhere around you. So the fact that $1700 could pay a $380k mortgage is irrelevant, because that purchase can't happen. Also, where did you get the $95k+closing costs=$115k cash down to get that $380k mortgage if you're making $75k or less?
    - clarky07 14y ago
      > Once you're in the SF/NYC scene with your job, you are kind of stuck because there are no houses to buy for $380k anywhere around you. There are lots of things available in NY outside of Manhattan. As for SF, there obviously isn't much in the city (28 foreclosures), but a quick search gives me 233 results inside of 45 minutes, and 940 inside of 60. > Also, where did you get the $95k+closing costs=$115k cash down to get that $380k mortgage if you're making $75k or less? 1. You don't have to have 20% down to buy a house (maybe you should, but it definitely isn't a requirement. 2. I wasn't even considering downpayment, the houses I was talking about were < 380k total, so mortgage would actually be even less factoring in any downpayment. 3. That's the point. If you are making 75k you shouldn't be spending 1700 a month on rent either. If you want to live in Manhattan, get yourself an awesome job paying 250k+. Otherwise it's to me it seems pretty stupid to live in Manhattan. 1700 a month for 180 sq ft just seems bizarre and absurd. That's not a good deal.

daeken 14y ago

The takehome on $36k wouldn't even be able to cover my tiny (~180sqft) studio in Manhattan ($1700/mo), let alone a decent place. And that place was a steal. As I said, it's possible to live very cheaply in NYC, if you're willing to be far away from everything; I know people who travel an hour and a half each way to get to work, to save a few hundred dollars a month. I can't make that sort of tradeoff -- my time is just worth too much to me. Edit: I should note, this is the primary reason I left NYC about 6 months ago. I'm paying all of $1400/mo for a large house in CT now, and working from home. Much as I love it, living in NYC is just too crazy.

yolesaber 14y ago
I'm sorry my friend but that is hardly a "steal". Also, you can very easily live in Brooklyn or Queens for under 1.7k a month with a far larger place and only have a 15-20 minute commute. It is very possible to live comfortably in NYC but why people choose to live squished up in Manhattan is beyond me.
- T-hawk 14y ago
  The best place to live in New York City is actually New Jersey. Hoboken and almost all of Jersey City are under 30 minutes from many Manhattan offices by the Path subway or bus or even ferry. Rent goes very roughly 25% cheaper than Manhattan for similar digs, everything from basement studios to ultramodern luxury towers. There's plenty of supermarkets and any other businesses you need. And access to the rest of the world via car or airport (Newark) is considerably easier from NJ. Bonus: NJ sales tax is less, and you dodge the NYC income and commuter taxes. I've lived on the NJ Gold Coast and commuted to Manhattan for basically my entire professional life, and pretty satisfied with it. My 15 minute ferry ride is just long enough to decompress and relax without getting bored. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Coast_(New_Jersey) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Coast_(New_Jersey) Whatever smelly downtrodden ghettoey reputation New Jersey once had is not at all universally true. Hoboken and downtown Jersey City are first-class modern neighborhoods. There's worse areas up into JC Heights and down to Bayonne, but by and large the region served by the Path is the equal of anything in Brooklyn/Queens.
- achompas 14y ago
  How does one go about finding a great place in Brooklyn or Queens without getting fleeced by brokers?
smartician 14y ago
The monthly take home on $36k in NY would be $2,250 [1]. So after rent you'd have $550 for groceries etc. Sure, it wouldn't be a comfortable life, but definitely doable, especially without a car. I agree with you on the commute though. I'm paying almost $1,800 for a one bedroom in Silicon Valley just to be able to ride my bicycle to work. [1] http://www.adp.com/tools-and-resources/calculators-and-tools/payroll-calculators/salary-paycheck-calculator.aspx http://www.adp.com/tools-and-resources/calculators-and-tools...
- zzzeek 14y ago
  paying $1700 a month in rent on $36K would be total insanity. The general rule is that rent should be no more than 25% of your income. On $550 a month after taxes and rent you'd not just have to pay for food (which can easily hit a few hundred a month if you aren't eating catfood), there is also: - utilities - clothing (employers appreciate this) - transportation (the NYC subway is now $2.25 (going to $2.50?) a ride, or a monthly unlimited is currently $104, so there's 1/5th of that 550) - phone bill (likely a very low end cellphone with limited use) - laundry (coin op machines can run up $20-$30 a month), if you have dry clean clothes then this is quite a bit more - medical ? does that $36K have health insurance as well? On a low-end insurance policy, the copay for a PCP visit is about $50, and if there's any kind of meds you need to take that can easily cost $50-100 a month. - renters insurance ? in case your apt. burns down, it's a good idea - any kind of occasional expenses that go over what's left, probably go on the credit card. So it's very likely there's 18-20% interest payments on a few thousand dollars going on at any given time as well. $550 a month after rent is really not workable for an active, functioning adult.
  - smartician 14y ago
    I'm not advocating the decision to spend this much on rent on such a small salary, I was just correcting the claim that $36k wouldn't even be enough to pay for a $1,700 apartment. Millions of people survive on less than $550 per month. Sure, you won't have your daily Starbucks, no cable TV, and your cell phone plan will most likely come from a low cost provider like Virgin Mobile. In a $36k job, you can probably get away with clothes from Kohl's or even the thrift store, and your apartment is probably not filled with expensive stuff so renter's insurance isn't that much of an issue.
joonix 14y ago
You're almost certainly trolling. If you are paying 1700 for a 180 sq ft studio (which is probably illegal), and think that's a steal, that's awful
- daeken 14y ago
  No, I'm not trolling, it's not illegal, and yes, that was a steal. It was in a convenient location (15 minute walk to work), first floor, and in a nice (if a bit dangerous at times) area. Since I know people spending hundreds more for a slightly bigger place (maybe 240sqft) in a less convenient area, it absolutely was a steal; most of the places around me were more like $2k/mo.
  - tharax 14y ago
    1700 for 180ft, is a price almost 100 per 10 ft. if they have 240 ft and they're paying "hundreds more" that should be about right - it's not a steal. it might be average, but not a steal.
- achompas 14y ago
  I can confirm this because (a) I too lived in a tiny studio in a super convenient area for a while and (b) after shopping around for a while I can confirm that $1.7k in Manhattan is definitely a steal.
- mh_yam 14y ago
  Definitely not. I pay $1600 for a 250sqft studio in Manhattan. It's quite nice actually.
dxbydt 14y ago
This thread & the thread yesterday on cost of living in SF miss some vital, real-world data. Most people simply don't live like this. I worked 4 years in Goldman Sachs, downtown Manhattan. One thing every MD consistently told me was that only fools live in Manhattan proper. Every one of these MDs had multi-million net-worth, liquid even, & still took either LIRR or NJ Transit or lived in Brooklyn/Queens/Jersey City/Hoboken/across GWB & took the Path & A train & whatnot. I lived in Fort Lee in a comfy gated $900 1-bdrm & took a bus + the A train - very adequate. Now I live in the Bay Area & take the BART & am able to land $1.5K 2-bdrm houses in the east bay very easily, stone's throw from the bart. When I hear my colleagues complain about the insane $3K studio rents in Nob Hill SF, I don't know what to say. Live in the burbs, wake up an hour earlier & take the BART. Nob Hill can wait. Your best friend is the local realtor. Talk to her over a starbucks latte & she will tell you how the locals hack real estate.
- Domenic_S 14y ago
  > am able to land $1.5K 2-bdrm houses in the east bay very easily Unless you're talking Oakland/Concord or the hwy 4 corridor, I call shenanigans.
  - dxbydt 14y ago
    If you want walking distance to Bart, I'm talking concord, walnut creek, pleasant hill. on a lucky day, orinda or lafayette even. If you have a family & want a nice large 3 bdrm with small yard, you can get one for under 2K in nearby San Ramon and take the BART commute bus to the actual BART...I know tons of people who do this everyday. I actually considered doing that myself but was able to land a nice albeit small 2brm with walking distance to bart. If you don't mind an additional 30 minutes of car commute time to the actual BART station, it dramatically opens up possibilities...Danville is very nice.
    - Domenic_S 14y ago
      Yeah no. I own a 2br home in Pleasant Hill. These 2 br SFH rentals for $1,500 you're talking about are a fantasy.
scottmey 14y ago
Sheesh! And that doesn't even come close to what some people pay. NYC > Manhattan. It's insane! I live 10 minute bike ride from Manhattan, and pay just under $500.00 a month w/ two roomates (GF and best friend) for the first two floors of a brownstone, plus basement and backyard. I've had about four apartments in the past 10 years in this range in my area, it really does pay to live just a little out of the way! I do pretty well for myself these days and am stashing around 50% of my income away. I feel like people who pay some of these whopping amounts of money don't even get to enjoy the true treasures of the city, and money is tied to everything. Stressful.

dinkumthinkum 14y ago

Why would that "wow" you. I'm confused by you. Many, many, people live in real poverty, live barely paycheck to paycheck, can only afford basically what is on the dollar menu. These people effect the average dramatically, and you think "doubling" that average is like some amazing number that someone would be crazy to think is not enough? ... Kind of a "wow" for me too. :)

clarky07 14y ago
I'm not the person you are responding to, but I suspect it is a matter of what is "enough". I suspect living in Manhattan is unnecessary and it is 100% luxury. Spending 1700 a month for a 180 sq ft studio seems beyond idiotic to me. 1700 is enough to cover the mortgage on a 380k house. 380k on a house = incredible mansion in 98% of America. In Nashville where I currently live (nice city btw) it gets you between 3500-5000 sq ft. In small town America it's even nicer. Especially with the remote and work from home options these days it seems absurd to pay so much for so little. (I understand not everyone can work from home, but you don't have to live in Manhattan)
- Domenic_S 14y ago
  Once you're in the SF/NYC scene with your job, you are kind of stuck because there are no houses to buy for $380k anywhere around you. So the fact that $1700 could pay a $380k mortgage is irrelevant, because that purchase can't happen. Also, where did you get the $95k+closing costs=$115k cash down to get that $380k mortgage if you're making $75k or less?
  - clarky07 14y ago
    > Once you're in the SF/NYC scene with your job, you are kind of stuck because there are no houses to buy for $380k anywhere around you. There are lots of things available in NY outside of Manhattan. As for SF, there obviously isn't much in the city (28 foreclosures), but a quick search gives me 233 results inside of 45 minutes, and 940 inside of 60. > Also, where did you get the $95k+closing costs=$115k cash down to get that $380k mortgage if you're making $75k or less? 1. You don't have to have 20% down to buy a house (maybe you should, but it definitely isn't a requirement. 2. I wasn't even considering downpayment, the houses I was talking about were < 380k total, so mortgage would actually be even less factoring in any downpayment. 3. That's the point. If you are making 75k you shouldn't be spending 1700 a month on rent either. If you want to live in Manhattan, get yourself an awesome job paying 250k+. Otherwise it's to me it seems pretty stupid to live in Manhattan. 1700 a month for 180 sq ft just seems bizarre and absurd. That's not a good deal.