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I truly doubt that Aaron really thought that 50 or even 35 years was a realistic sentence to be honest. Mitnick was charged with wire fraud and illegal possessi

by sp4rki 14y ago

I truly doubt that Aaron really thought that 50 or even 35 years was a realistic sentence to be honest. Mitnick was charged with wire fraud and illegal possession of computer files and 23 other charges and did 5 years and change. All other hackers that have been convicted by the US have done from months to 4 years, and most have even gotten the supervised release with no computer use null. Also I really don't see the cruel and unusual here. It's the same procedure that everyone else gets. He should have taken this opportunity to help shape a movement for the change of CFAA and ITERA, enter the list of "elite hackers" that have been wronged by their country (for a great PR boost nonetheless), and bring to the spotlight his main cause of information liberation. He probably didn't take that route and opted for suicide because he was depressed or had some mental issue that was aggravated (but not caused by, I make the distinction) because of the pressure of his conviction and the existing (though very low) possibility that he might actually do hard time. Don't get me wrong. I'm on Aaron's side, but all the fear mongering and hyperbole lately is unbecoming. We as a community are right now grasping at straws trying to make Carmen Ortiz as this horrible monster, when she was basically just a woman doing her job. She's not Charles Manson. Let's battle the CFAA and try to get things to change instead of focusing on a little woman who will most probably never suffer any repercussion for this, and seriously it's doubtful that she deserves any either.

wwwtyro 14y ago
In my opinion, it's unconscionable to imprison people for nonviolent crimes. > We as a community are right now grasping at straws trying to make Carmen Ortiz as this horrible monster, when she was basically just a woman doing her job. Isn't her job to pursue justice? Nothing about this strikes me as just.
- sp4rki 14y ago
  That's a very slippery slope to walk on slippery shoes. Say someone breaks into your neighbors house and steals 10k worth of stuff. Oh wait, he shouldn't go to jail because it was a non violent crime. So he doesn't go to jail and has to pay restitution. Now he's pushed for money so your house is next, and this time you catch the thief. Who's to say someone that is willing to break the law and steal from you is not willing to hurt you to not get caught? > Isn't her job to pursue justice? Nothing about this strikes me as just. Her job is to pursue justice within the boundaries of stablished laws, which technically and pragmatically Aaron did break. She didn't create the CFAA and it's modifications via the Patriot Act and the ITERA. That is what we should be focusing on, not some witch hunt directed to a person who most invariably was just performing her job duties bound by the law she claims to uphold.
  - wwwtyro 14y ago
    > Say someone breaks into your neighbors house and steals 10k worth of stuff. I consider crimes of violence to be the use of aggressive force against a person or their property. After some research, this appears to disagree with the generally accepted definition, so feel free to reread my comment with this in mind. > Her job is to pursue justice within the boundaries of stablished laws, which technically and pragmatically Aaron did break. The "just following orders" defense. I reject such a notion. If "just following orders" or "just prosecuting within the boundaries of the law" leads one to perform or support unethical actions, then one should refuse to follow those orders or prosecute those laws. > That is what we should be focusing on, not some witch hunt While I am all for the repeal of the CFAA, I do not think that it is unreasonable to seek justice against someone for abusing the justice system (torturous use of plea bargaining).
RyanMcGreal 14y ago
> It's the same procedure that everyone else gets. That was also true of torture, flogging, stocks, breaking on the wheel, burning at the stake, the heretic's fork, knee splitters, the rack, thumbscrews, and the other various sadistic forms of punishment that every European civilization routinely used on its prisoners before they were condemned as barbaric and banned. They were not regarded as "cruel and unusual" because they were uncommon, but because they went against contemporary ideas of fairness, civility and efficacy as legal tools. I would argue that the threat of 35 or 50 years in a federal prison for a victimless act of civil disobedience is similarly "cruel and unusual" against today's ideas of fairness, civility and efficacy.
- sp4rki 14y ago
  My point is that he was not going to serve 50 nor 35 years. There is a lot of precedent already regarding "cyber crimes", and in most of them the served time is but a fraction of the maximum penalty. This happens each and every day and is the reason that plea bargains, judges, and juries exist. On another point, you mentioned a plethora of violent punishments, which the topic at hand isn't. First it wasn't a punishment yet, second it wasn't violent, third it isn't unusual at all as it's the same process used for almost every criminal trial specially in an accusatory trial, and fourth cruelty is in the eye of the beholder. On this last point I'd like to make one distinction: cruelty is mostly referred to in two different contexts: 1) Physical pain: in which case there was none to speak of here, and 2) Disregard for the suffering of others (irregardless of physical pain): in which case she is both crueler than you and me because she prosecuted a bright young man with all means available to him to the point of having an influence in his death, and as cruel as both of us because we've all been in a position in which we have not cared about the suffering of another human being, either because you're (not directed to you, just trying to make a point here, don't take offense) not interested in middle eastern politics and international conflict, or because I didn't want to give my last dollar to that poor homeless man on the corner with arthritis.
  - RyanMcGreal 14y ago
    > My point is that he was not going to serve 50 nor 35 years. If he pleaded guilty, he was offered a high likelihood of serving only a short prison time. I will set aside my contention that even a day of time in a federal prison is disproportionate for what amounts to a TOS violation, and instead focus on the fact that a short prison term would only come with a guilty plea. The prosecutor used the threat of 35-50 years in prison to get Aaron to accept a guilty plea. If he chose to plead not guilty and attempt to defend himself, it would cost well over a million dollars in legal fees, and if he were found guilty anyway, the judge would be strongly predisposed to make an example of him by giving him a very long, punitive sentence. A prosecutor forcing someone to admit guilt by threatening a life-destroying cruel and unusual punishment if they do not admit it - why, that is the very essence of using torture to extract a confession!

by sp4rki 14y ago

wwwtyro 14y ago

In my opinion, it's unconscionable to imprison people for nonviolent crimes. > We as a community are right now grasping at straws trying to make Carmen Ortiz as this horrible monster, when she was basically just a woman doing her job. Isn't her job to pursue justice? Nothing about this strikes me as just.

sp4rki 14y ago
That's a very slippery slope to walk on slippery shoes. Say someone breaks into your neighbors house and steals 10k worth of stuff. Oh wait, he shouldn't go to jail because it was a non violent crime. So he doesn't go to jail and has to pay restitution. Now he's pushed for money so your house is next, and this time you catch the thief. Who's to say someone that is willing to break the law and steal from you is not willing to hurt you to not get caught? > Isn't her job to pursue justice? Nothing about this strikes me as just. Her job is to pursue justice within the boundaries of stablished laws, which technically and pragmatically Aaron did break. She didn't create the CFAA and it's modifications via the Patriot Act and the ITERA. That is what we should be focusing on, not some witch hunt directed to a person who most invariably was just performing her job duties bound by the law she claims to uphold.
- wwwtyro 14y ago
  > Say someone breaks into your neighbors house and steals 10k worth of stuff. I consider crimes of violence to be the use of aggressive force against a person or their property. After some research, this appears to disagree with the generally accepted definition, so feel free to reread my comment with this in mind. > Her job is to pursue justice within the boundaries of stablished laws, which technically and pragmatically Aaron did break. The "just following orders" defense. I reject such a notion. If "just following orders" or "just prosecuting within the boundaries of the law" leads one to perform or support unethical actions, then one should refuse to follow those orders or prosecute those laws. > That is what we should be focusing on, not some witch hunt While I am all for the repeal of the CFAA, I do not think that it is unreasonable to seek justice against someone for abusing the justice system (torturous use of plea bargaining).

RyanMcGreal 14y ago

> It's the same procedure that everyone else gets. That was also true of torture, flogging, stocks, breaking on the wheel, burning at the stake, the heretic's fork, knee splitters, the rack, thumbscrews, and the other various sadistic forms of punishment that every European civilization routinely used on its prisoners before they were condemned as barbaric and banned. They were not regarded as "cruel and unusual" because they were uncommon, but because they went against contemporary ideas of fairness, civility and efficacy as legal tools. I would argue that the threat of 35 or 50 years in a federal prison for a victimless act of civil disobedience is similarly "cruel and unusual" against today's ideas of fairness, civility and efficacy.

sp4rki 14y ago
My point is that he was not going to serve 50 nor 35 years. There is a lot of precedent already regarding "cyber crimes", and in most of them the served time is but a fraction of the maximum penalty. This happens each and every day and is the reason that plea bargains, judges, and juries exist. On another point, you mentioned a plethora of violent punishments, which the topic at hand isn't. First it wasn't a punishment yet, second it wasn't violent, third it isn't unusual at all as it's the same process used for almost every criminal trial specially in an accusatory trial, and fourth cruelty is in the eye of the beholder. On this last point I'd like to make one distinction: cruelty is mostly referred to in two different contexts: 1) Physical pain: in which case there was none to speak of here, and 2) Disregard for the suffering of others (irregardless of physical pain): in which case she is both crueler than you and me because she prosecuted a bright young man with all means available to him to the point of having an influence in his death, and as cruel as both of us because we've all been in a position in which we have not cared about the suffering of another human being, either because you're (not directed to you, just trying to make a point here, don't take offense) not interested in middle eastern politics and international conflict, or because I didn't want to give my last dollar to that poor homeless man on the corner with arthritis.
- RyanMcGreal 14y ago
  > My point is that he was not going to serve 50 nor 35 years. If he pleaded guilty, he was offered a high likelihood of serving only a short prison time. I will set aside my contention that even a day of time in a federal prison is disproportionate for what amounts to a TOS violation, and instead focus on the fact that a short prison term would only come with a guilty plea. The prosecutor used the threat of 35-50 years in prison to get Aaron to accept a guilty plea. If he chose to plead not guilty and attempt to defend himself, it would cost well over a million dollars in legal fees, and if he were found guilty anyway, the judge would be strongly predisposed to make an example of him by giving him a very long, punitive sentence. A prosecutor forcing someone to admit guilt by threatening a life-destroying cruel and unusual punishment if they do not admit it - why, that is the very essence of using torture to extract a confession!