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> "I think he committed suicide because he thought he was going to be Bradley Manning-inged. I wish he would have waited a little longer and had a little more h

by logn 14y ago

> "I think he committed suicide because he thought he was going to be Bradley Manning-inged. I wish he would have waited a little longer and had a little more hope but it's easy to be cool and logical from a comfy chair, meanwhile his mind was facing darkness." Both agreeing and disagreeing here... I don't get how everyone assumes that Aaron was making a logical decision when he killed himself. It's very possible he was depressed and wasn't thinking clearly at all. It's also very possible that this trial made him depressed. But to assume that he was thinking reasonably about the circumstances and decided it was best not to live is a huge assumption. Depression completely warps reality. Also, I'd like to add that given this, I think we're all being a bit unfair to the prosecutor. Sure, she overstepped the bounds of reason. But it's very possible she triggered an underlying mental illness in Aaron. Yes, she is partly to blame. But so is everyone else. MIT didn't step up. But also his loved ones near him didn't do enough to help. It's quite simply a tragedy. Painting Ortiz as a murderer is as wrong a painting Swartz as a felon deserving of a 35 year prison sentence.

jacquesm 14y ago
> It's very possible he was depressed and wasn't thinking clearly at all. I'd take that as a given. > It's also very possible that this trial made him depressed. I think to think otherwise would be to ignore plenty of evidence to the contrary. > But to assume that he was thinking reasonably about the circumstances and decided it was best not to live is a huge assumption. Depression completely warps reality. Yes. And this is the bit for which Aaron carried some responsibility, if you're prone to depression you should not position yourself in situations where extreme stress and threats to your personal freedom might result. Being a person prone to depression and being an activist that takes very visible steps antagonizing powerful entities is not something that you should want to combine in the same person. That didn't stop Aaron from being who he was though and in some sense he seems to have felt driven to do these things. Note that I say this as a strong supporter of everything that Aaron stood for and fought for. > Also, I'd like to add that given this, I think we're all being a bit unfair to the prosecutor. No we're not. She's been using people to further her career. This is disgusting. > But it's very possible she triggered an underlying mental illness in Aaron. She pushed him to the brink and then across it. There is no excuse for such behavior. > Yes, she is partly to blame. But so is everyone else. This we agree on. > MIT didn't step up. They did the opposite, they pushed for punishment including jail time according to most accounts. > But also his loved ones near him didn't do enough to help. You know NOTHING about that and should refrain from such comments. > It's quite simply a tragedy. No, it is an utter failure of the judicial system. > Painting Ortiz as a murderer is as wrong a painting Swartz as a felon deserving of a 35 year prison sentence. Nobody is painting Ortiz as a murderer, and she painted Swartz as a felon deserving of a 35 year prison sentence and now tries to make it seem as if that was just business as usual. This madness should end.
- logn 14y ago
  >> But also his loved ones near him didn't do enough to help. >You know NOTHING about that and should refrain from such comments. If you suspect someone is going to harm him/herself, you call 911 and explain as much. They immediately come and forcibly lock the person in a mental institution against their will until a doctor or board decides they're no longer a threat for suicide. Also, I'm not defending Ortiz in any way. What I am saying is that a lot of people are overreacting. Yes, she's a terrible prosecutor, went way overboard and likely played a role in a young man's death. But to say that he "was killed by the government" (Aaron's father said that) and then for us to focus our anger on Ortiz is absurd. Sure, I can accept the government had a role in his death. But Ortiz is operating within the system that exists, enforcing ToS-violation-is-a-felony precedent that already exists, using multiple counts to force a plea that all prosecutors do.
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    > If you suspect someone is going to harm him/herself, you call 911 and explain as much. Again, you make huge assumptions about the situation. Let me enumerate a few of them: - you assume that Aaron let on he was about to do this - you assume that there was some opportunity to stop him - you assume that Aaron wasn't clever enough to do whatever he wanted - you assume that no such effort was made but failed To make a long story short: if someone really wants to commit suicide they will manage to do so, sometimes right under the noses of those that care without them suspecting anything. > But Ortiz is operating within the system that exists, enforcing ToS-violation-is-a-felony precedent that already exists, using multiple counts to force a plea that all prosecutors do. Indeed. And she chose that role out of her own free will. 'My hands were tied' doesn't cut it with me, we all make our own decisions, every day.

by logn 14y ago

jacquesm 14y ago

> It's very possible he was depressed and wasn't thinking clearly at all. I'd take that as a given. > It's also very possible that this trial made him depressed. I think to think otherwise would be to ignore plenty of evidence to the contrary. > But to assume that he was thinking reasonably about the circumstances and decided it was best not to live is a huge assumption. Depression completely warps reality. Yes. And this is the bit for which Aaron carried some responsibility, if you're prone to depression you should not position yourself in situations where extreme stress and threats to your personal freedom might result. Being a person prone to depression and being an activist that takes very visible steps antagonizing powerful entities is not something that you should want to combine in the same person. That didn't stop Aaron from being who he was though and in some sense he seems to have felt driven to do these things. Note that I say this as a strong supporter of everything that Aaron stood for and fought for. > Also, I'd like to add that given this, I think we're all being a bit unfair to the prosecutor. No we're not. She's been using people to further her career. This is disgusting. > But it's very possible she triggered an underlying mental illness in Aaron. She pushed him to the brink and then across it. There is no excuse for such behavior. > Yes, she is partly to blame. But so is everyone else. This we agree on. > MIT didn't step up. They did the opposite, they pushed for punishment including jail time according to most accounts. > But also his loved ones near him didn't do enough to help. You know NOTHING about that and should refrain from such comments. > It's quite simply a tragedy. No, it is an utter failure of the judicial system. > Painting Ortiz as a murderer is as wrong a painting Swartz as a felon deserving of a 35 year prison sentence. Nobody is painting Ortiz as a murderer, and she painted Swartz as a felon deserving of a 35 year prison sentence and now tries to make it seem as if that was just business as usual. This madness should end.

logn 14y ago
>> But also his loved ones near him didn't do enough to help. >You know NOTHING about that and should refrain from such comments. If you suspect someone is going to harm him/herself, you call 911 and explain as much. They immediately come and forcibly lock the person in a mental institution against their will until a doctor or board decides they're no longer a threat for suicide. Also, I'm not defending Ortiz in any way. What I am saying is that a lot of people are overreacting. Yes, she's a terrible prosecutor, went way overboard and likely played a role in a young man's death. But to say that he "was killed by the government" (Aaron's father said that) and then for us to focus our anger on Ortiz is absurd. Sure, I can accept the government had a role in his death. But Ortiz is operating within the system that exists, enforcing ToS-violation-is-a-felony precedent that already exists, using multiple counts to force a plea that all prosecutors do.
- jacquesm 14y ago
  > If you suspect someone is going to harm him/herself, you call 911 and explain as much. Again, you make huge assumptions about the situation. Let me enumerate a few of them: - you assume that Aaron let on he was about to do this - you assume that there was some opportunity to stop him - you assume that Aaron wasn't clever enough to do whatever he wanted - you assume that no such effort was made but failed To make a long story short: if someone really wants to commit suicide they will manage to do so, sometimes right under the noses of those that care without them suspecting anything. > But Ortiz is operating within the system that exists, enforcing ToS-violation-is-a-felony precedent that already exists, using multiple counts to force a plea that all prosecutors do. Indeed. And she chose that role out of her own free will. 'My hands were tied' doesn't cut it with me, we all make our own decisions, every day.