4 ms·

How many were obtained illegally? How many were suicides? How many more people died from more preventable causes? Sound bites are sound bites are sound bites.

ck2 14y ago
Isn't the proper question "how many deaths happened in other countries of the same population density" ? Because I assure you, it's lower in the UK, Japan, etc. You cannot just say "oh well what can you do, it's the price we pay to have our toys".
- philwelch 14y ago
  You're right. Let's ban cars. Though that's a bit too extreme, let's only ban assault vehicles. You know, those black SUV's that look a little too much like military vehicles. That is a good solution to the number of people killed by drunk drivers.
  - fusiongyro 14y ago
    This really is about the perfect analogy. Vague statistics refracted through hysteria and political shenanigans ending with unhelpful legislation.
  - ck2 14y ago
    Nah let's remove speed limits and drink all you want when you drive. Because people should have all the freedom they want and people are rational and intelligent. Screw the rights of other people to be able to drive safely. Heck, why restrict fully automatic M16s and bazookas - why dare impose limits at all. People are rational and intelligent their freedom should not stop where others begin. In fact you should be able to drunk drive and carry around your loaded M16 out the window down the highway. We should be like the middle east with people firing fully automatics in the air anytime they want and gangs roaming around in pickups fully armed. The gun bans they are trying now are the only place they can start. Because anything more sane would insanely be ignored. At least they are trying and it's a start. Guns are not toys and that's the whole problem, people want to play with them because they think it's a game.
    - unimpressive 14y ago
      >The gun bans they are trying now are the only place they can start. Because anything more sane would insanely be ignored. At least they are trying and it's a start. The thing about legislative efforts, is that on an issue where there are parties who want to take certain laws to one extreme or the other (Ex: Banning all guns.) and the sliding scale is freedom vs regulation, there will inevitably always be push from both of the extreme sides. So even if you enact "reasonable" gun laws, there will always be parties trying to push them forwards or backwards. This means that the sensible thing for guns rights organizations to do is turn even a minor gun regulation into a shitstorm so that the opposing forces on the other side have to spend all their energy maintaining reasonable gun laws. Internet activists may want to take notes.
      - ck2 14y ago
        As long as people enjoy killing animals, guns will never be illegal in this country. There are plenty of lefties in the senate who really enjoy killing animals so guns are always going to be legal. What they are trying to restrict is the use of guns as toys and I have zero problem with that. I think hunting is ridiculous and horrible in this day and age but I guess that's part of the compromise I have to do. I am not accepting anything further than that though, guns are not toys.
        fusiongyro 14y ago
        There are environmentally sound reasons to control the population of wild animals. A population boom/bust cycle wreaks havoc on the environment. We've already interfered with nature on this continent to such a degree it cannot self-regulate. I don't enjoy killing animals, but those that I know who hunt are in fact doing us all a public service we would otherwise have to pay the government to do.
    - philwelch 14y ago
      > Guns are not toys and that's the whole problem, people want to play with them because they think it's a game. This doesn't describe any gun owner I've ever met. Like most people who want to ban guns, you're arguing out of complete ignorance.
  - froo 14y ago
    As an Australian, I thought I should point out that despite the Straw Man argument above, this is actually what happened in our country. Our death rate due to firearms has reduced by half since our automatic/semi automatic buyback program initiated in 1996 and yet, the number of guns sold last year was the same[1] as pre-1996 levels. [1] http://www.theage.com.au/national/australians-restock-the-gun-racks-20130113-2cnmu.html http://www.theage.com.au/national/australians-restock-the-gu...
- Firehed 14y ago
  As someone else pointed out, including suicides in gun death statistics is pointless: they would have found another method had guns not been available. I looked into the stats briefly on murders per 100k by country, and the US was somewhere in the middle of the pack. If you assume that removing guns would eliminate those deaths (I doubt this), we were actually quite safe. If on the other hand you assume that those deaths would have been caused in other ways - we are still in the middle of the pack.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    Let's be honest, the biggest factor is organized crime, and the strongest correlates are with the drug trade.
  - MartinCron 14y ago
    As someone else pointed out, including suicides in gun death statistics is pointless: they would have found another method had guns not been available That implies that suicide is a rational act committed by rational actors. The fact that suicide prevention fences on bridges absolutely have been proven to work refutes that. Regardless, it is misleading to include suicides when talking about gun violence, just how it's misleading to only talk about rifles when talking about gun violence.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      > The fact that suicide prevention fences on bridges absolutely have been proven to work refutes that. Have they been proven to prevent suicide, or to prevent suicide by jumping from a bridge? I always thought those were to stop people from throwing crap at cars/trains anyway; I have never seen them on bridges that just go over water. I've also noticed that you can often judge the niceness of an area by what they put along the sides of bridges: if nothing then it is probably a nice area, if a fence then it is not notably nice but kind of average, if a corrugated steel then it is probably a fairly shitty area.
      - MartinCron 14y ago
- diminoten 14y ago
  The US has one of the highest suicides-by-gun rates in the world. But why are we talking about guns? This isn't a gun conversation, this is a mental health conversation. Give people a free and easy way to seek help for mental conditions and this problem just... goes away.

ck2 14y ago

Isn't the proper question "how many deaths happened in other countries of the same population density" ? Because I assure you, it's lower in the UK, Japan, etc. You cannot just say "oh well what can you do, it's the price we pay to have our toys".

philwelch 14y ago
You're right. Let's ban cars. Though that's a bit too extreme, let's only ban assault vehicles. You know, those black SUV's that look a little too much like military vehicles. That is a good solution to the number of people killed by drunk drivers.
- fusiongyro 14y ago
  This really is about the perfect analogy. Vague statistics refracted through hysteria and political shenanigans ending with unhelpful legislation.
- ck2 14y ago
  Nah let's remove speed limits and drink all you want when you drive. Because people should have all the freedom they want and people are rational and intelligent. Screw the rights of other people to be able to drive safely. Heck, why restrict fully automatic M16s and bazookas - why dare impose limits at all. People are rational and intelligent their freedom should not stop where others begin. In fact you should be able to drunk drive and carry around your loaded M16 out the window down the highway. We should be like the middle east with people firing fully automatics in the air anytime they want and gangs roaming around in pickups fully armed. The gun bans they are trying now are the only place they can start. Because anything more sane would insanely be ignored. At least they are trying and it's a start. Guns are not toys and that's the whole problem, people want to play with them because they think it's a game.
  - unimpressive 14y ago
    >The gun bans they are trying now are the only place they can start. Because anything more sane would insanely be ignored. At least they are trying and it's a start. The thing about legislative efforts, is that on an issue where there are parties who want to take certain laws to one extreme or the other (Ex: Banning all guns.) and the sliding scale is freedom vs regulation, there will inevitably always be push from both of the extreme sides. So even if you enact "reasonable" gun laws, there will always be parties trying to push them forwards or backwards. This means that the sensible thing for guns rights organizations to do is turn even a minor gun regulation into a shitstorm so that the opposing forces on the other side have to spend all their energy maintaining reasonable gun laws. Internet activists may want to take notes.
    - ck2 14y ago
      As long as people enjoy killing animals, guns will never be illegal in this country. There are plenty of lefties in the senate who really enjoy killing animals so guns are always going to be legal. What they are trying to restrict is the use of guns as toys and I have zero problem with that. I think hunting is ridiculous and horrible in this day and age but I guess that's part of the compromise I have to do. I am not accepting anything further than that though, guns are not toys.
      - fusiongyro 14y ago
        There are environmentally sound reasons to control the population of wild animals. A population boom/bust cycle wreaks havoc on the environment. We've already interfered with nature on this continent to such a degree it cannot self-regulate. I don't enjoy killing animals, but those that I know who hunt are in fact doing us all a public service we would otherwise have to pay the government to do.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    > Guns are not toys and that's the whole problem, people want to play with them because they think it's a game. This doesn't describe any gun owner I've ever met. Like most people who want to ban guns, you're arguing out of complete ignorance.
- froo 14y ago
  As an Australian, I thought I should point out that despite the Straw Man argument above, this is actually what happened in our country. Our death rate due to firearms has reduced by half since our automatic/semi automatic buyback program initiated in 1996 and yet, the number of guns sold last year was the same[1] as pre-1996 levels. [1] http://www.theage.com.au/national/australians-restock-the-gun-racks-20130113-2cnmu.html http://www.theage.com.au/national/australians-restock-the-gu...
Firehed 14y ago
As someone else pointed out, including suicides in gun death statistics is pointless: they would have found another method had guns not been available. I looked into the stats briefly on murders per 100k by country, and the US was somewhere in the middle of the pack. If you assume that removing guns would eliminate those deaths (I doubt this), we were actually quite safe. If on the other hand you assume that those deaths would have been caused in other ways - we are still in the middle of the pack.
- philwelch 14y ago
  Let's be honest, the biggest factor is organized crime, and the strongest correlates are with the drug trade.
- MartinCron 14y ago
  As someone else pointed out, including suicides in gun death statistics is pointless: they would have found another method had guns not been available That implies that suicide is a rational act committed by rational actors. The fact that suicide prevention fences on bridges absolutely have been proven to work refutes that. Regardless, it is misleading to include suicides when talking about gun violence, just how it's misleading to only talk about rifles when talking about gun violence.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    > The fact that suicide prevention fences on bridges absolutely have been proven to work refutes that. Have they been proven to prevent suicide, or to prevent suicide by jumping from a bridge? I always thought those were to stop people from throwing crap at cars/trains anyway; I have never seen them on bridges that just go over water. I've also noticed that you can often judge the niceness of an area by what they put along the sides of bridges: if nothing then it is probably a nice area, if a fence then it is not notably nice but kind of average, if a corrugated steel then it is probably a fairly shitty area.
    - MartinCron 14y ago
diminoten 14y ago
The US has one of the highest suicides-by-gun rates in the world. But why are we talking about guns? This isn't a gun conversation, this is a mental health conversation. Give people a free and easy way to seek help for mental conditions and this problem just... goes away.