4 ms·

I think this should be taken with a grain of salt, and I say this specifically for this crowd, who I've noticed more and more aren't the prospective founders an

I think this should be taken with a grain of salt, and I say this specifically for this crowd, who I've noticed more and more aren't the prospective founders and outliers that it once contained but young, inexperienced new-grads or almost-grads that are just getting into the business and think starups are a good option. My advice, to be blunt, is this: Know your role. It's all well and good to rail against these (frankly) really dumb hiring practices. A lot of us are in the position where we don't have to put up with this crap. Of course a lot of us are in the position where we aren't interviewing at all anymore. Simply saying "I did such and such in the past" or even better "I worked with so and so" is good enough for many of us to land nice cushy gigs. Such is the benefit of a reputation, and you will build one, one way or another, in whatever niche you are in, over time. However, young Padawan, this is not you. Not now. You - like it or not - are simply a number on a job application. And discounting the few who are lucky enough to have completed a project that means something in your short lives, or to have the fortunate grace to share acquaintance (and high opinion) with someone the hiring person knows and respects, you are NOT "interviewing the company". You are a nothing. And just like all the other nothings that come through the door, if you want to get noticed you need to find a way to stand out from the crowd. You will likely not always be a nothing, but right now, you are. And so, your lot in life is to jump through hoops and toe the line until you can start to stand on your own two feet. Please don't take the approach that the interview is an equal transaction unless it actually is. I've 'not hired' far too many of you, to be honest. You'll know when the transaction is equal, and if you are asking the question, it isn't. That isn't to say you should take any offer that comes to you; just that you are in no position to be picky. And if you are bitching about interview questions, this is the position you are in.

pekk 14y ago
What comes across very clearly is that you talk like a tremendous asshole who I wouldn't want to supervise, let alone work under. Someone getting paid less than you doesn't entitle you to talk in this incredibly abusive way to them. Get some perspective. Knowing some people doesn't make you a badass. You are a nothing who knows some people. Big deal. Lots of people know some people, including total idiots. Not knowing some people doesn't make your juniors garbage. Anyone who wants to work with nice, cooperative people will avoid any shop which represents itself in this absolutely toxic way.
- run4yourlives 14y ago
  Sigh, it's clear you missed the point. I'm going to explain myself further because I truly believe people like yourself are simply ignorant, not stupid, and I'd like to tell you the things I wish somebody told me. It would have saved me a few years of misery. I'm not here to be your friend. My post is laying out reality for you whether you appreciate that or not. The simple fact of the matter is that the person doing the interviews is interviewing many more people than you are attending interviews. As I said - Know your role. Keep in mind that all the people over 35 have probably faced the same situations you will face in your first 5 years of employment numerous times. That means that although they don't have all the answers, they do have the benefit of having actually lived through several outcomes. This counts. A lot. You do not have this perspective. Understand this and you will go far. Refuse to accept it and you'll likely make the same mistakes they did. Knowing some people doesn't make you a badass. You are a nothing who knows some people. Big deal. I don't see where I said that at all. I said knowing people (assuming knowing also means "receiving respect from") opens doors. Not knowing people keeps these doors inaccessible to you. Don't bitch at me, this is simply the way the world works. If you haven't figured that out yet, you're in for a world of issues. Anyone who wants to work with nice, cooperative people will avoid any shop which represents itself in this absolutely toxic way And anyone that wants to work period will understand that utopia is a myth. I'm not seeing my generation under-employed and serving lattes at Startbucks because filing is "beneath them" or "the company asks riddles at the interview". You aren't in a position to dictate your terms (yet). More importantly, you'll never get to such a position if you don't understand this now! There are times in life to be humble and deal with stupid riddles, bureaucracy, stupid policies and yes, even the asshole boss. When you are young and starting out is probably the textbook example. You can bitch and moan about how the world is awful and life isn't fair or call people that don't support your worldview assholes, as children do, or you can understand that you are once again at the bottom and work a little bit harder, a little bit longer, producing a little bit better results than your peers, and move up the chain a little. Your choice, not mine. As I said, I'm in a different world now. I can (and have) walked away from things I don't like, been poached by other companies, and don't remember the last time I actually responded to a job ad. You probably will have that too - I'm not exactly special - but not anytime soon.
JasonFruit 14y ago
By the time I was done interviewing someone, they weren't a nothing to me any more — I had an idea of who they were. The whole point of an interview is to cease being a nothing and gain the respect and interest of the interviewers; if you're interviewing people as though they're nothings, you may notice that a lot of your best candidates turn you down. Finally, everyone is interviewing the company; if the interviewee isn't willing to turn down an offer, someone will take advantage of them.
- run4yourlives 14y ago
  Of course a person isn't a nothing. The issue is that many recent grads (especially those that are smart/have done well) somehow seem to forget that as far as the work world goes, they are back at the bottom of the pile. I'm simply pointing out that many of them - particularly in this generation - don't seem to have any idea of their overall place in the grand scheme of things. There are close to 50 years of "top of the class" grads floating around out there. That's the competition. if the interviewee isn't willing to turn down an offer, someone will take advantage of them. While I don't disagree, the fact of the matter is that a new grad rarely, if ever, has this luxury. It's true that it may very well be in their best interests to not take a job despite not having an income. I've seen far to many though that never get the right start because there idea of "being taken advantage of" is so far out of whack with reality that they don't take any viable position. Given 1-2 years of unemployment, they become less and less valuable, and more and more desperate. 9/10, as a new grad, you should take an appropriate offer from the first company that makes it. The experience you need is much more valuable to you than the interview quiz, the dress code, or yes, even the pay.
rwallace 14y ago
The moral of this story is: do not let your career slide to the extent that you go all the way through school and then college, most of two decades including what should have been some of the most productive years of your life, and still end up with no work experience so that someone like the above poster feels entitled to tell you you are a nothing. The time to get proactive about your career is long before that point.
martinced 14y ago
"young padawan", "you're just a number", "your lot in life is to...", "you're inferior" Really? Why are you playing the bully here with people younger than you? You obviously have personal issues: you use the fact that you're conducting interviews to feel "superior", to believe it's not an equal transaction, etc. Who the fk do you think you are to try to make youngsters feel inferior by bullying them with such sentences? I agree that, when you're experienced and have actually delivered impressive things (technically impressive, that it failed is not a problem as long as it didn't fail because of technical issue), potential employers / interviewers will look at what you did and think: "This guy means business" (as in "he's good"). I've been both interviewee and interviewer and I didn't use riddles to determine people's "way of thinking". And that's where I disagree with you... It's not because I don't need to answer to (sadly too often silly) interview questions anymore that I do consider it "normal" for interviewers to do riddles and to consider applications as "numbers". You don't get it about the offer either: some interviewees won't let you even make the offer because they'll politely (or sometimes not so politely) give you the finger way before you have the opportunity to be the one deciding. If it has never happened to you then you haven't interviewed nearly enough people. If it already happened to you, then it destroys your argumentation... I can see all too clearly the type of person you are: you are feeling "superior" not because of your skills or what but because of your age and your position in the company, which "allows" you to conduct interviews. Which you love all too much because it gives you the impression to be "superior". Also be careful with the patronizing: there are still a few of us entrepreneurs around here older than you and you should not generalize about HN being all about people in their 20s or even 30s.
- run4yourlives 14y ago
  Why are you playing the bully here with people younger than you? Because a great many young grads need to hear it. A great many have been told they are special all their lives and can't take someone dispensing the fact that they aren't. You only need look at the replies to my (admittedly, and by design, harsh) comment to see this. My comment is designed to serve a purpose. If it gets one person to realize where they are and what they should do to get where they want, great. I'm personally not concerned if it offends 40 other people along the way - it's a net positive for one young man/woman.
glenjamin 14y ago
I'm not quite sure why there are so many negative responses to this, the tone is rather direct and harsh (the author admits this was intentional below), but the general sentiment seems spot on. The target audience for the OP is people who have leverage in a Job interview situation, people who have experience and who have a number of options to pick from (ie. Any decent developer with a project or 2 of successful practical experience under their belt). The parent is simply saying, that before you blindly follow the OP's advice, make sure that you are definitely in the category of people who have the luxury of doing so.
- run4yourlives 14y ago
  I can answer your question for you. Or rather, pg already has: http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html You can see by the vitriol in the responses that I've hit a nerve - people know what I'm saying to be true, they just hate that it is so, and they hate me for pointing out that it is so, and being unapologetic about it at that. Such is life. I'm less concerned about what names people call me than who is doing the name calling. Random people on the internet obviously don't know me well enough to matter, really.

pekk 14y ago

What comes across very clearly is that you talk like a tremendous asshole who I wouldn't want to supervise, let alone work under. Someone getting paid less than you doesn't entitle you to talk in this incredibly abusive way to them. Get some perspective. Knowing some people doesn't make you a badass. You are a nothing who knows some people. Big deal. Lots of people know some people, including total idiots. Not knowing some people doesn't make your juniors garbage. Anyone who wants to work with nice, cooperative people will avoid any shop which represents itself in this absolutely toxic way.

run4yourlives 14y ago
Sigh, it's clear you missed the point. I'm going to explain myself further because I truly believe people like yourself are simply ignorant, not stupid, and I'd like to tell you the things I wish somebody told me. It would have saved me a few years of misery. I'm not here to be your friend. My post is laying out reality for you whether you appreciate that or not. The simple fact of the matter is that the person doing the interviews is interviewing many more people than you are attending interviews. As I said - Know your role. Keep in mind that all the people over 35 have probably faced the same situations you will face in your first 5 years of employment numerous times. That means that although they don't have all the answers, they do have the benefit of having actually lived through several outcomes. This counts. A lot. You do not have this perspective. Understand this and you will go far. Refuse to accept it and you'll likely make the same mistakes they did. Knowing some people doesn't make you a badass. You are a nothing who knows some people. Big deal. I don't see where I said that at all. I said knowing people (assuming knowing also means "receiving respect from") opens doors. Not knowing people keeps these doors inaccessible to you. Don't bitch at me, this is simply the way the world works. If you haven't figured that out yet, you're in for a world of issues. Anyone who wants to work with nice, cooperative people will avoid any shop which represents itself in this absolutely toxic way And anyone that wants to work period will understand that utopia is a myth. I'm not seeing my generation under-employed and serving lattes at Startbucks because filing is "beneath them" or "the company asks riddles at the interview". You aren't in a position to dictate your terms (yet). More importantly, you'll never get to such a position if you don't understand this now! There are times in life to be humble and deal with stupid riddles, bureaucracy, stupid policies and yes, even the asshole boss. When you are young and starting out is probably the textbook example. You can bitch and moan about how the world is awful and life isn't fair or call people that don't support your worldview assholes, as children do, or you can understand that you are once again at the bottom and work a little bit harder, a little bit longer, producing a little bit better results than your peers, and move up the chain a little. Your choice, not mine. As I said, I'm in a different world now. I can (and have) walked away from things I don't like, been poached by other companies, and don't remember the last time I actually responded to a job ad. You probably will have that too - I'm not exactly special - but not anytime soon.

JasonFruit 14y ago

By the time I was done interviewing someone, they weren't a nothing to me any more — I had an idea of who they were. The whole point of an interview is to cease being a nothing and gain the respect and interest of the interviewers; if you're interviewing people as though they're nothings, you may notice that a lot of your best candidates turn you down. Finally, everyone is interviewing the company; if the interviewee isn't willing to turn down an offer, someone will take advantage of them.

run4yourlives 14y ago
Of course a person isn't a nothing. The issue is that many recent grads (especially those that are smart/have done well) somehow seem to forget that as far as the work world goes, they are back at the bottom of the pile. I'm simply pointing out that many of them - particularly in this generation - don't seem to have any idea of their overall place in the grand scheme of things. There are close to 50 years of "top of the class" grads floating around out there. That's the competition. if the interviewee isn't willing to turn down an offer, someone will take advantage of them. While I don't disagree, the fact of the matter is that a new grad rarely, if ever, has this luxury. It's true that it may very well be in their best interests to not take a job despite not having an income. I've seen far to many though that never get the right start because there idea of "being taken advantage of" is so far out of whack with reality that they don't take any viable position. Given 1-2 years of unemployment, they become less and less valuable, and more and more desperate. 9/10, as a new grad, you should take an appropriate offer from the first company that makes it. The experience you need is much more valuable to you than the interview quiz, the dress code, or yes, even the pay.

rwallace 14y ago

The moral of this story is: do not let your career slide to the extent that you go all the way through school and then college, most of two decades including what should have been some of the most productive years of your life, and still end up with no work experience so that someone like the above poster feels entitled to tell you you are a nothing. The time to get proactive about your career is long before that point.

martinced 14y ago

"young padawan", "you're just a number", "your lot in life is to...", "you're inferior" Really? Why are you playing the bully here with people younger than you? You obviously have personal issues: you use the fact that you're conducting interviews to feel "superior", to believe it's not an equal transaction, etc. Who the fk do you think you are to try to make youngsters feel inferior by bullying them with such sentences? I agree that, when you're experienced and have actually delivered impressive things (technically impressive, that it failed is not a problem as long as it didn't fail because of technical issue), potential employers / interviewers will look at what you did and think: "This guy means business" (as in "he's good"). I've been both interviewee and interviewer and I didn't use riddles to determine people's "way of thinking". And that's where I disagree with you... It's not because I don't need to answer to (sadly too often silly) interview questions anymore that I do consider it "normal" for interviewers to do riddles and to consider applications as "numbers". You don't get it about the offer either: some interviewees won't let you even make the offer because they'll politely (or sometimes not so politely) give you the finger way before you have the opportunity to be the one deciding. If it has never happened to you then you haven't interviewed nearly enough people. If it already happened to you, then it destroys your argumentation... I can see all too clearly the type of person you are: you are feeling "superior" not because of your skills or what but because of your age and your position in the company, which "allows" you to conduct interviews. Which you love all too much because it gives you the impression to be "superior". Also be careful with the patronizing: there are still a few of us entrepreneurs around here older than you and you should not generalize about HN being all about people in their 20s or even 30s.

run4yourlives 14y ago
Why are you playing the bully here with people younger than you? Because a great many young grads need to hear it. A great many have been told they are special all their lives and can't take someone dispensing the fact that they aren't. You only need look at the replies to my (admittedly, and by design, harsh) comment to see this. My comment is designed to serve a purpose. If it gets one person to realize where they are and what they should do to get where they want, great. I'm personally not concerned if it offends 40 other people along the way - it's a net positive for one young man/woman.

glenjamin 14y ago

I'm not quite sure why there are so many negative responses to this, the tone is rather direct and harsh (the author admits this was intentional below), but the general sentiment seems spot on. The target audience for the OP is people who have leverage in a Job interview situation, people who have experience and who have a number of options to pick from (ie. Any decent developer with a project or 2 of successful practical experience under their belt). The parent is simply saying, that before you blindly follow the OP's advice, make sure that you are definitely in the category of people who have the luxury of doing so.

run4yourlives 14y ago
I can answer your question for you. Or rather, pg already has: http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html You can see by the vitriol in the responses that I've hit a nerve - people know what I'm saying to be true, they just hate that it is so, and they hate me for pointing out that it is so, and being unapologetic about it at that. Such is life. I'm less concerned about what names people call me than who is doing the name calling. Random people on the internet obviously don't know me well enough to matter, really.