6 ms·

If they were only looking for a 6 month sentence, why did they charge him with 11 counts of fraud? The judge is free to disregard the proscecution's recommendat

by il 14y ago

If they were only looking for a 6 month sentence, why did they charge him with 11 counts of fraud? The judge is free to disregard the proscecution's recommendations and sentence the defendant to the full legal maximum. This is not common in federal cases, but it does happen.

benatkin 14y ago
Exactly my thought. Her statement is deliberately misleading.
- sociotech 14y ago
  It really isn't. Talk to some lawyers. It's exactly what happens in criminal cases like this, and that's not obviously a bad thing. I'm glad lots of people are asking questions about the plea system, but it's worth getting informed before reaching simple conclusions. What happened here was a proposal where the US Atty. would agree to ask for six months in a minimum-security prison (where Aaron could have, for example, read whatever he wanted and had debates with financial criminals for six months), would agree to let Aaron's lawyers present an argument for a suspended sentence ("probation"), and let the judge decide. The judge here has a kind of harsh reputation, but, from talking to local lawyers, it seems that that mostly comes from being pro-government. Aaron would probably have gotten six months.
  - benatkin 14y ago
    This is the statement I take issue with: > At no time did this office ever seek - or ever tell Mr. Swartz's attorneys that it intended to seek - maximum penalties under the law. Emphasis on the "at no time" part, which includes after the plea bargain fell through. I repeat what il said. Why so many counts?
  - MisterBastahrd 14y ago
    Sorry, but we're overstocked on torches and pitchforks and need to move them. Can you come back and be reasonable at some other time?
  - bokonist 14y ago
    Let's say a person takes the deal, goes before the judge, the judge sides with the prosecutor, and the judge gives the defendant six months in prison. At that point can the defendant say, "actually, thanks but no thanks, I want a jury trial"? Or is the defendant bound to the sentence once he agrees to go before the judge?
    - rayiner 14y ago
      Once the defendant agrees, he agrees. But he can make the plea contingent. "I'll only plead guilty if the sentencing judge only gives me 6 months."
  - il 14y ago
    No, the it's highly uncommon for a proscecutor to refuse to drop any charges as part of a plea bargain. Not only would Aaron have been a convincted felon, but he would have had a dozen felonies on his record as priors. If the DA didn't want to make an example out of him, they would have dropped most charges and reduced the felony to a misdemeanor as is done in the vast majority of these cases.
philwelch 14y ago
Plea bargaining is a form of negotiation.
- LancerSykera 14y ago
  About as much as putting a gun to one's head is a form of negotiation.
  - tghw 14y ago
    "While at the same time, his defense counsel would have been free to recommend a sentence of probation. Ultimately, any sentence imposed would have been up to the judge." This was not negotiation with a gun.
  - maxharris 14y ago
    Swartz was first to point a gun (i.e., initiate force). No one forced him to keep breaking into MIT's wireless networks and its wiring closet, nor did anyone force him to violate JSTOR's rules and copyrights. He chose to do all of those things, and the government was merely doing what it's supposed to do: retaliate.
- mtgx 14y ago
  Choosing between serving more time and serving less time isn't much of a deal when you think what you did was right and you are innocent.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    Why does it matter what the defendant thinks is right?
  - philwelch 14y ago
    Doing what you think is right when you know it is probably illegal is called civil disobedience, and it usually entails a willingness to go to prison when done right.
- 9oliYQjP 14y ago
downandout 14y ago
They charged him with that many counts because they wanted to extort him into signing a plea. That's pretty much how they work these things. It's standard operating procedure - overcharge, then sign the plea. The interesting part is that they wanted him to plead guilty to 13 felonies. That is relatively unusual, as in most cases they agree to drop all but one or two counts. In many states that deal would qualify him for a three strikes penalty if he were ever charged with a felony subsequent to this case (a state-based computer crime, for example). If he had taken the deal and were charged a few years later with any felony in Nevada, for example, he would be exposed to a life sentence.

by il 14y ago

benatkin 14y ago

Exactly my thought. Her statement is deliberately misleading.

sociotech 14y ago
It really isn't. Talk to some lawyers. It's exactly what happens in criminal cases like this, and that's not obviously a bad thing. I'm glad lots of people are asking questions about the plea system, but it's worth getting informed before reaching simple conclusions. What happened here was a proposal where the US Atty. would agree to ask for six months in a minimum-security prison (where Aaron could have, for example, read whatever he wanted and had debates with financial criminals for six months), would agree to let Aaron's lawyers present an argument for a suspended sentence ("probation"), and let the judge decide. The judge here has a kind of harsh reputation, but, from talking to local lawyers, it seems that that mostly comes from being pro-government. Aaron would probably have gotten six months.
- benatkin 14y ago
  This is the statement I take issue with: > At no time did this office ever seek - or ever tell Mr. Swartz's attorneys that it intended to seek - maximum penalties under the law. Emphasis on the "at no time" part, which includes after the plea bargain fell through. I repeat what il said. Why so many counts?
- MisterBastahrd 14y ago
  Sorry, but we're overstocked on torches and pitchforks and need to move them. Can you come back and be reasonable at some other time?
- bokonist 14y ago
  Let's say a person takes the deal, goes before the judge, the judge sides with the prosecutor, and the judge gives the defendant six months in prison. At that point can the defendant say, "actually, thanks but no thanks, I want a jury trial"? Or is the defendant bound to the sentence once he agrees to go before the judge?
  - rayiner 14y ago
    Once the defendant agrees, he agrees. But he can make the plea contingent. "I'll only plead guilty if the sentencing judge only gives me 6 months."
- il 14y ago
  No, the it's highly uncommon for a proscecutor to refuse to drop any charges as part of a plea bargain. Not only would Aaron have been a convincted felon, but he would have had a dozen felonies on his record as priors. If the DA didn't want to make an example out of him, they would have dropped most charges and reduced the felony to a misdemeanor as is done in the vast majority of these cases.

philwelch 14y ago

Plea bargaining is a form of negotiation.

LancerSykera 14y ago
About as much as putting a gun to one's head is a form of negotiation.
- tghw 14y ago
  "While at the same time, his defense counsel would have been free to recommend a sentence of probation. Ultimately, any sentence imposed would have been up to the judge." This was not negotiation with a gun.
- maxharris 14y ago
  Swartz was first to point a gun (i.e., initiate force). No one forced him to keep breaking into MIT's wireless networks and its wiring closet, nor did anyone force him to violate JSTOR's rules and copyrights. He chose to do all of those things, and the government was merely doing what it's supposed to do: retaliate.
mtgx 14y ago
Choosing between serving more time and serving less time isn't much of a deal when you think what you did was right and you are innocent.
- rayiner 14y ago
  Why does it matter what the defendant thinks is right?
- philwelch 14y ago
  Doing what you think is right when you know it is probably illegal is called civil disobedience, and it usually entails a willingness to go to prison when done right.
9oliYQjP 14y ago

downandout 14y ago

They charged him with that many counts because they wanted to extort him into signing a plea. That's pretty much how they work these things. It's standard operating procedure - overcharge, then sign the plea. The interesting part is that they wanted him to plead guilty to 13 felonies. That is relatively unusual, as in most cases they agree to drop all but one or two counts. In many states that deal would qualify him for a three strikes penalty if he were ever charged with a felony subsequent to this case (a state-based computer crime, for example). If he had taken the deal and were charged a few years later with any felony in Nevada, for example, he would be exposed to a life sentence.