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I'll be honest, I'm tired of "free". I'd rather see some definitive information under the Pricing section. I'm tired of getting "invested" in web apps that ar

by brk 14y ago

I'll be honest, I'm tired of "free". I'd rather see some definitive information under the Pricing section. I'm tired of getting "invested" in web apps that are free, and then having them pivot dramatically or go under. This is less of an issue for small things, but anything that I'm going to incorporate into my business workflow needs to have at least some semblance of a business plan apparent. Looks neat, I'll be happy to try it out when you're ready to take my money :)

zende 14y ago
You can always use HelloFax (same company) if you're interested in paying ;-). I get what you're saying though. B2B is not like building a consumer app. I'd rather pay as long as it's reasonable.
- thefreeman 14y ago
  Not that you necessarily said otherwise, but just wanted to mention that I could definitely see this being used by individuals as well. I have used a similar service (echosign) in the past to sign apartment leases, etc. This seems like it may be targeting that crowd as well with "smart phone integration" and other features.
davidjgraph 14y ago
How long does something need to be provider for for free before you trust that it'll stay that way? This is an attitude we're trying to overcome with our model.
- vincentperes 14y ago
  For that case, giving an idea on how the money is gonna be made (advertisement or other) would give more trust. People wouldn't wonder "for how long" if it comes from Google or a big company as it is a trusted company and it has big chances to last.
- pdonis 14y ago
  How long does something need to be provider for for free before you trust that it'll stay that way? My personal answer: never. Google has killed free apps that had had lots of users for years. If Google can't guarantee that a free app will stay free and available, nobody can.
  - davidjgraph 14y ago
    As just the kind of 100% no person I need to convince, does our explanation of our model http://forum.jgraph.com/questions/4323/is-draw-io-here-to-stay-how-come-it-s-free-and-will-it-stay-free http://forum.jgraph.com/questions/4323/is-draw-io-here-to-st... not sway you at all?
    - pdonis 14y ago
      This tells me that your real product is not free. You are selling a product, technology for making custom diagramming applications, that happens to have an offshoot that you can make freely available without compromising your core business model, and making it freely available has a better cost-benefit for you than trying to sell it as a cheap app, or for that matter not releasing it at all (releasing it gives you positive PR if nothing else). (Btw, is there a similar business model and explanation for hellosign? I assume there is. If not, the link you gave is not really relevant to this discussion.) None of the above is communicated when you say "it's free!" on your front page with no other explanation, or when you ask "how long does it need to be provided for free before you trust that it will stay that way?". The critical factor is not how long you've been providing it for free; it's that the free "product" is not really the product, it's just a side effect of your real product. If you really want to change people's attitudes about the issues involved here, find a catchy word that differentiates your business model from "free".
      - davidjgraph 14y ago
        "Btw, is there a similar business model and explanation for hellosign? I assume there is. If not, the link you gave is not really relevant to this discussion." Threads in topics often vary in subject. My posting would not be suitable as a reply to the OP, following from the top of this thread, I would say my replies are perfectly reasonable relative to the parent post.
- brk 14y ago
  I'm not sure there is a universal answer to this. It's not about the duration of "Free", it's about the emergence of a recognizable business model, and also about the general complexity of the product and how frequently I would use it and come to rely on it. Another issue is that we all know that nothing is "free", and as the saying goes "if you're not paying for it, YOU are the product". I don't like the idea of business documents with my signature somehow ending up in an ad-based business model. B2B sales models and tactics are (IME) very different than B2C. On the plus side, B2B is more likely to be receptive to a paid-for product, and the down side it can be somewhat more difficult to get the viral exposure you get from a B2C product since not as many people are likely to be interested in it, or able to decide for themselves if they can use your product. A freemium model works good here. Have pricing set upfront and clearly defined. Let me test the product with no risk for some period of time and then convert to a paying customer (or not).
felipelalli 14y ago
I love free apps. Free is better than nothing.
- polyfractal 14y ago
  Until you use it for something important (like a business). Then it becomes a liability. In those cases free is often worse than nothing, since you are actively depending on it. Had you not chose the free offering, you may have chosen something else or built it yourself.
ableal 14y ago
This seems a nice article on pricing strategies: http://onstartups.com/tabid/3339/bid/37737/Secrets-Of-Freemium-Pricing-Make-The-Cheapskates-Pay.aspx http://onstartups.com/tabid/3339/bid/37737/Secrets-Of-Freemi... Strangely, as a submission here (not by me), it got killed yesterday. I looked it over when it came up, and when I went to join my vote to the dozen or so it had gathered, it was dead ...
- nostromo 14y ago
  It's still alive: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5060367 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5060367 Just seems to have been modded down or something: http://hnrankings.info/5060367/ http://hnrankings.info/5060367/
pasbesoin 14y ago
I haven't looked into HelloSign or its pricing model, but I'll say that, so far, HelloFax seems to have handled its sort of "freemium" features and promotions, and its pricing model fairly well. (Without my having access to any of their financials or management, but having used the product and observed its continued existence and some news about same, over the past year and a bit). They seem to be good at getting you on board and then upselling you based upon your actual needs and use, rather than coercive arm twisting. I'm more concerned about installing any plugin and giving it access to my Gmail account. Buchheit's participation is a coup, in that regard, for me and I suspect for some others aware of his role in Gmail's original development, at least. And that same crowd seems to form part of the original core of their paying business. (Again, this is a fairly uninformed observation, on my part.) I'll be curious to observe where this goes.
raganwald 14y ago
>I'll be honest, I'm tired of "free". I'm with you! http://raganwald.posterous.com/dear-landlord http://raganwald.posterous.com/dear-landlord

by brk 14y ago

zende 14y ago

You can always use HelloFax (same company) if you're interested in paying ;-). I get what you're saying though. B2B is not like building a consumer app. I'd rather pay as long as it's reasonable.

thefreeman 14y ago
Not that you necessarily said otherwise, but just wanted to mention that I could definitely see this being used by individuals as well. I have used a similar service (echosign) in the past to sign apartment leases, etc. This seems like it may be targeting that crowd as well with "smart phone integration" and other features.

davidjgraph 14y ago

How long does something need to be provider for for free before you trust that it'll stay that way? This is an attitude we're trying to overcome with our model.

vincentperes 14y ago
For that case, giving an idea on how the money is gonna be made (advertisement or other) would give more trust. People wouldn't wonder "for how long" if it comes from Google or a big company as it is a trusted company and it has big chances to last.
pdonis 14y ago
How long does something need to be provider for for free before you trust that it'll stay that way? My personal answer: never. Google has killed free apps that had had lots of users for years. If Google can't guarantee that a free app will stay free and available, nobody can.
- davidjgraph 14y ago
  As just the kind of 100% no person I need to convince, does our explanation of our model http://forum.jgraph.com/questions/4323/is-draw-io-here-to-stay-how-come-it-s-free-and-will-it-stay-free http://forum.jgraph.com/questions/4323/is-draw-io-here-to-st... not sway you at all?
  - pdonis 14y ago
    This tells me that your real product is not free. You are selling a product, technology for making custom diagramming applications, that happens to have an offshoot that you can make freely available without compromising your core business model, and making it freely available has a better cost-benefit for you than trying to sell it as a cheap app, or for that matter not releasing it at all (releasing it gives you positive PR if nothing else). (Btw, is there a similar business model and explanation for hellosign? I assume there is. If not, the link you gave is not really relevant to this discussion.) None of the above is communicated when you say "it's free!" on your front page with no other explanation, or when you ask "how long does it need to be provided for free before you trust that it will stay that way?". The critical factor is not how long you've been providing it for free; it's that the free "product" is not really the product, it's just a side effect of your real product. If you really want to change people's attitudes about the issues involved here, find a catchy word that differentiates your business model from "free".
    - davidjgraph 14y ago
      "Btw, is there a similar business model and explanation for hellosign? I assume there is. If not, the link you gave is not really relevant to this discussion." Threads in topics often vary in subject. My posting would not be suitable as a reply to the OP, following from the top of this thread, I would say my replies are perfectly reasonable relative to the parent post.
brk 14y ago
I'm not sure there is a universal answer to this. It's not about the duration of "Free", it's about the emergence of a recognizable business model, and also about the general complexity of the product and how frequently I would use it and come to rely on it. Another issue is that we all know that nothing is "free", and as the saying goes "if you're not paying for it, YOU are the product". I don't like the idea of business documents with my signature somehow ending up in an ad-based business model. B2B sales models and tactics are (IME) very different than B2C. On the plus side, B2B is more likely to be receptive to a paid-for product, and the down side it can be somewhat more difficult to get the viral exposure you get from a B2C product since not as many people are likely to be interested in it, or able to decide for themselves if they can use your product. A freemium model works good here. Have pricing set upfront and clearly defined. Let me test the product with no risk for some period of time and then convert to a paying customer (or not).

felipelalli 14y ago

I love free apps. Free is better than nothing.

polyfractal 14y ago
Until you use it for something important (like a business). Then it becomes a liability. In those cases free is often worse than nothing, since you are actively depending on it. Had you not chose the free offering, you may have chosen something else or built it yourself.

ableal 14y ago

This seems a nice article on pricing strategies: http://onstartups.com/tabid/3339/bid/37737/Secrets-Of-Freemium-Pricing-Make-The-Cheapskates-Pay.aspx http://onstartups.com/tabid/3339/bid/37737/Secrets-Of-Freemi... Strangely, as a submission here (not by me), it got killed yesterday. I looked it over when it came up, and when I went to join my vote to the dozen or so it had gathered, it was dead ...

nostromo 14y ago
It's still alive: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5060367 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5060367 Just seems to have been modded down or something: http://hnrankings.info/5060367/ http://hnrankings.info/5060367/

pasbesoin 14y ago

I haven't looked into HelloSign or its pricing model, but I'll say that, so far, HelloFax seems to have handled its sort of "freemium" features and promotions, and its pricing model fairly well. (Without my having access to any of their financials or management, but having used the product and observed its continued existence and some news about same, over the past year and a bit). They seem to be good at getting you on board and then upselling you based upon your actual needs and use, rather than coercive arm twisting. I'm more concerned about installing any plugin and giving it access to my Gmail account. Buchheit's participation is a coup, in that regard, for me and I suspect for some others aware of his role in Gmail's original development, at least. And that same crowd seems to form part of the original core of their paying business. (Again, this is a fairly uninformed observation, on my part.) I'll be curious to observe where this goes.

raganwald 14y ago

>I'll be honest, I'm tired of "free". I'm with you! http://raganwald.posterous.com/dear-landlord http://raganwald.posterous.com/dear-landlord