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My idea was to release an app every 3-5 months and make at least 60k/year. I cannot sell that much in Brazil as a individual (limit here is 36k BRL). Actually,

My idea was to release an app every 3-5 months and make at least 60k/year. I cannot sell that much in Brazil as a individual (limit here is 36k BRL). Actually, it took me 8 days to open the company. At the first day I had the CNPJ (EIN in the US), so, in fact, it took me less than 24 hours to be able to accept payments. I don't see the app store as a viable way of making a living anymore (for single developers). I'll try to build something that doesn't depend of other company's mood.

eridius 14y ago
First off, you actually have a limit on how much an individual developer can make? That sounds crazy. Secondly, I don't understand your anger at Apple. They don't control DUNS numbers. It's not their fault that you're having a problem getting one.
- Steko 14y ago
  Elaborating a bit on DUNS: My understanding is that DUNS was not always a requirement for companies publishing on the iOS App Store. It was added about a year and a half ago (?) and given the timing and what DUNS represents it seems reasonable to assume that it was added as a reaction to app spammers and scammers that would run fly by night operations, take people's money and run. DUNS may not have been the best solution and like other areas of the submission/approval process it seems there are some obvious quality of life improvements Apple should implement but in the big picture what is the alternative to DUNS? (1) Go back to scammer friendly system. Yeah I don't see that happening. (2) Apple holds the money for longer. I don't see people lining up for this option. (3) Everyone has to buy insurance. Spoilers: insurer asks for DUNS number. (4) A better partner than D&B. Is there one? The US government appears to be looking for alternatives as well[1] but it doesn't look like there is a good replacement. [1] http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-12-715R http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-12-715R GSA has been conducting an analysis of alternatives for the use of Dun & Bradstreet's DUNS entity unique identifier and is expected to complete its analysis by March 30, 2013.
  - tomkin 14y ago
    (5) Apple provides the relatively simple service of looking up incorporation documents. I can't complain about the speed in getting a DUNS number, since it was quiet fast. Being in Canada, I was surprised how fast they were able to validate my newly created corporation. But I am not sure why we're to believe that D&B have special abilities. Incorporation documents are publicly available.
- eduardordm 14y ago
  Not really, probably the US has a limit of how much you can sell without being a company too.
  - eridius 14y ago
    I don't think so. When people form LLC's it's for liability reasons, not because the government complains if they make too much money under their own name.
    - droithomme 14y ago
      LLCs do not shield you from liability for your own actions, such as if you are the developer who made an error in code that damaged a customer. E&O insurance is what is really needed and is held by any professional company or individual selling software. LLC organization is not a way to avoid purchasing E&O insurance, contrary to the popular opinion on the internet. Those who don't believe me should seek the counsel of a competent attorney. If your attorney says that an LLC shields you from liability from your own coding errors, the attorney is not competent and you should seek another.
      - eridius 14y ago
        I thought an LLC basically prevented someone from seizing your personal assets if they sue your company. They can only get the company's assets in a lawsuit.
        lesterbuck 14y ago
        It is a bit tricky on the liability shield for a corporation. If the entity (LLC/corporation/etc.) makes a bad investment, the creditors cannot come after your personal assets (assuming you haven't put up a personal guarantee). If one of your employees has an expensive accident while driving for you, exceeding your insurance, they can only take the assets of your entity. BUT if you are driving that company vehicle and hit the school bus, they can sue you personally for your personal mistakes, even though you were on company business.
- mikeash 14y ago
  Apple controls their own requirements. They don't have to require a DUNS number, and didn't until recently. If DUNS sucks, it makes perfect sense to blame Apple for requiring them.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- krzyk 14y ago
  > First off, you actually have a limit on how much an individual developer can make? That sounds crazy. Yes crazy, but that's how governments work. Here in Poland you there is a problem with this also. Most of the time you have to register a company to be able to do anything that is not "working for someone else". E.g. when you put AdSense on your webpage and make some money you should do it under a company, not as an individual. Similarly with appstores.
- frabcus 14y ago
  They could use an open standard for international company numbers instead of a closed one, e.g. see http://opencorporates.com/ http://opencorporates.com/
ricardobeat 14y ago
AFAIK 36k/year is the cut-off for lower taxes, not a hard limit (for independent workers/RPA). You do get much lower taxes by doing business as a company though.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- pretoriusB 14y ago
  So he thought he had it all figured out, and was so sure we would beat 36K/year that he opened a company just to ensure lower taxes when the inevitable happens... It's funny, but you also have to admire the optimism. If it only was accompanied with more persistence.
  - ricardobeat 14y ago
    How would you like to pay ~40% taxes instead of 5-12%? 36k is already a meager salary before taxes. It's a no-brainer to open a company, it pays for itself in the first month.
    - pretoriusB 14y ago
      You have to have income before you pay any taxes. And you started the whole company with the idea that money will start flowing as soon as you write iOS apps...
hdra 14y ago
I remember reading somewhere about paying $230 to get it done within a couple of days. If that was your plan(60K/year, not to mention the amount of money and time you would need to invest to start a serious company) then whats the problem of paying that relatively little amount of money just to get it out of the way? If you're planning to build a company, I don't think this will be your biggest problem. Unless, if you're doing this part time, then its even easier, just get an individual account.
xuki 14y ago
You can always convert from individual account to company account. Just register as individual first and convert later, if you have to wait for DUNS number. I know getting a DUNS number sucks but there is way around it.
jvc26 14y ago
For 60k/yr paying a fee of even 1000 to get a DUNS number seems negligible ...
pretoriusB 14y ago
>My idea was to release an app every 3-5 months and make at least 60k/year. I cannot sell that much in Brazil as a individual (limit here is 36k BRL). I don't see the app store as a viable way of making a living anymore (for single developers). I'll try to build something that doesn't depend of other company's mood. It was never a "viable way of making a living" in the sense you describe. Who told you you can "release an app every 3-5 months and make 60k/year at least"? For one, a proper apps takes a lot more time. Second, no app is guaranteed to make anything at all. Especially if it's coming from someone that hasn't made released any other iPhone app, doesn't know the market and doesn't know Objective-C! The App Store is like any other market: it takes effort, determination, hard work and/or luck. And you devised all this plan (and even paid to start a company) without even testing the waters with a single app? Perhaps seeing something in the range of 2K a year for your first app (as many developers do, and most even less) would have spared you all this trouble. Seems to me like you had this idea that the App Store was like a money printing service, where you just churn out some apps and roll in the dough, and in the first sign of trouble (and BS trouble at that, like the DUNS requirement) you demand the free money you were promised...

eridius 14y ago

First off, you actually have a limit on how much an individual developer can make? That sounds crazy. Secondly, I don't understand your anger at Apple. They don't control DUNS numbers. It's not their fault that you're having a problem getting one.

Steko 14y ago
Elaborating a bit on DUNS: My understanding is that DUNS was not always a requirement for companies publishing on the iOS App Store. It was added about a year and a half ago (?) and given the timing and what DUNS represents it seems reasonable to assume that it was added as a reaction to app spammers and scammers that would run fly by night operations, take people's money and run. DUNS may not have been the best solution and like other areas of the submission/approval process it seems there are some obvious quality of life improvements Apple should implement but in the big picture what is the alternative to DUNS? (1) Go back to scammer friendly system. Yeah I don't see that happening. (2) Apple holds the money for longer. I don't see people lining up for this option. (3) Everyone has to buy insurance. Spoilers: insurer asks for DUNS number. (4) A better partner than D&B. Is there one? The US government appears to be looking for alternatives as well[1] but it doesn't look like there is a good replacement. [1] http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-12-715R http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-12-715R GSA has been conducting an analysis of alternatives for the use of Dun & Bradstreet's DUNS entity unique identifier and is expected to complete its analysis by March 30, 2013.
- tomkin 14y ago
  (5) Apple provides the relatively simple service of looking up incorporation documents. I can't complain about the speed in getting a DUNS number, since it was quiet fast. Being in Canada, I was surprised how fast they were able to validate my newly created corporation. But I am not sure why we're to believe that D&B have special abilities. Incorporation documents are publicly available.
eduardordm 14y ago
Not really, probably the US has a limit of how much you can sell without being a company too.
- eridius 14y ago
  I don't think so. When people form LLC's it's for liability reasons, not because the government complains if they make too much money under their own name.
  - droithomme 14y ago
    LLCs do not shield you from liability for your own actions, such as if you are the developer who made an error in code that damaged a customer. E&O insurance is what is really needed and is held by any professional company or individual selling software. LLC organization is not a way to avoid purchasing E&O insurance, contrary to the popular opinion on the internet. Those who don't believe me should seek the counsel of a competent attorney. If your attorney says that an LLC shields you from liability from your own coding errors, the attorney is not competent and you should seek another.
    - eridius 14y ago
      I thought an LLC basically prevented someone from seizing your personal assets if they sue your company. They can only get the company's assets in a lawsuit.
      - lesterbuck 14y ago
        It is a bit tricky on the liability shield for a corporation. If the entity (LLC/corporation/etc.) makes a bad investment, the creditors cannot come after your personal assets (assuming you haven't put up a personal guarantee). If one of your employees has an expensive accident while driving for you, exceeding your insurance, they can only take the assets of your entity. BUT if you are driving that company vehicle and hit the school bus, they can sue you personally for your personal mistakes, even though you were on company business.
mikeash 14y ago
Apple controls their own requirements. They don't have to require a DUNS number, and didn't until recently. If DUNS sucks, it makes perfect sense to blame Apple for requiring them.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
krzyk 14y ago
> First off, you actually have a limit on how much an individual developer can make? That sounds crazy. Yes crazy, but that's how governments work. Here in Poland you there is a problem with this also. Most of the time you have to register a company to be able to do anything that is not "working for someone else". E.g. when you put AdSense on your webpage and make some money you should do it under a company, not as an individual. Similarly with appstores.
frabcus 14y ago
They could use an open standard for international company numbers instead of a closed one, e.g. see http://opencorporates.com/ http://opencorporates.com/

ricardobeat 14y ago

AFAIK 36k/year is the cut-off for lower taxes, not a hard limit (for independent workers/RPA). You do get much lower taxes by doing business as a company though.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
pretoriusB 14y ago
So he thought he had it all figured out, and was so sure we would beat 36K/year that he opened a company just to ensure lower taxes when the inevitable happens... It's funny, but you also have to admire the optimism. If it only was accompanied with more persistence.
- ricardobeat 14y ago
  How would you like to pay ~40% taxes instead of 5-12%? 36k is already a meager salary before taxes. It's a no-brainer to open a company, it pays for itself in the first month.
  - pretoriusB 14y ago
    You have to have income before you pay any taxes. And you started the whole company with the idea that money will start flowing as soon as you write iOS apps...

hdra 14y ago

I remember reading somewhere about paying $230 to get it done within a couple of days. If that was your plan(60K/year, not to mention the amount of money and time you would need to invest to start a serious company) then whats the problem of paying that relatively little amount of money just to get it out of the way? If you're planning to build a company, I don't think this will be your biggest problem. Unless, if you're doing this part time, then its even easier, just get an individual account.

xuki 14y ago

You can always convert from individual account to company account. Just register as individual first and convert later, if you have to wait for DUNS number. I know getting a DUNS number sucks but there is way around it.

jvc26 14y ago

For 60k/yr paying a fee of even 1000 to get a DUNS number seems negligible ...

pretoriusB 14y ago

>My idea was to release an app every 3-5 months and make at least 60k/year. I cannot sell that much in Brazil as a individual (limit here is 36k BRL). I don't see the app store as a viable way of making a living anymore (for single developers). I'll try to build something that doesn't depend of other company's mood. It was never a "viable way of making a living" in the sense you describe. Who told you you can "release an app every 3-5 months and make 60k/year at least"? For one, a proper apps takes a lot more time. Second, no app is guaranteed to make anything at all. Especially if it's coming from someone that hasn't made released any other iPhone app, doesn't know the market and doesn't know Objective-C! The App Store is like any other market: it takes effort, determination, hard work and/or luck. And you devised all this plan (and even paid to start a company) without even testing the waters with a single app? Perhaps seeing something in the range of 2K a year for your first app (as many developers do, and most even less) would have spared you all this trouble. Seems to me like you had this idea that the App Store was like a money printing service, where you just churn out some apps and roll in the dough, and in the first sign of trouble (and BS trouble at that, like the DUNS requirement) you demand the free money you were promised...