4 ms·

I mean the alternative of him being dead. Yes, there were other alternatives and jail certainly wasn't the best one. My point is simply that it would have been

by wilfra 14y ago

I mean the alternative of him being dead. Yes, there were other alternatives and jail certainly wasn't the best one. My point is simply that it would have been better than what ultimately happened, so given that, it's not so terrible the prosecutor suggested it.

jacquesm 14y ago
> I mean the alternative of him being dead. I got what you meant, but what ultimately did happen is not relevant when you're speculating, what should have happened is and the prosecutors suggestion is moronic. Part of the whole idea of having a justice system is that you do what's best for society. Putting otherwise superbly functioning human beings naked in a rubber room is such a spectacular waste of human potential that I really have a problem just contemplating such things, it is like having my head defiled.
- wilfra 14y ago
  Preventing him from killing himself, by any means necessary, would have been best for society. If he were in a psychiatric hospital the treatment wouldn't have been much different. They also use rubber rooms and cameras, if necessary. Outside of those two options, I'm not sure what you are implying could/should have been done. Was the prosecutor supposed to follow Aaron around 24/7 and physically stop him from hurting himself?
  - hackinthebochs 14y ago
    >Preventing him from killing himself, by any means necessary, would have been best for society. Please explain this one to me. I would love to see what you come up with. I can think of about a thousand reasons why it isn't.
  - Volpe 14y ago
    Or not pursue charges based on politics, and instead focus on the 'good of society'. Step back a bit. They charges didn't even need to be pursued. What "good" was ever going to come of it in any possible situation where charges were pursued?
    - wilfra 14y ago
      That's got nothing to do with how the prosecutor should respond to being told he is suicidal. I agree he shouldn't have been prosecuted.
      - Volpe 14y ago
        ... Yes it is. If I think these charges probably aren't going to do anything good, and they could kill someone, I might consider not pursuing them (being reasonable)... Easy to say this in hindsight, but it is not unrelated.
  - mpyne 14y ago
    > Was the prosecutor supposed to follow Aaron around 24/7 and physically stop him from hurting himself? I think the prosecution was simply supposed to not charge him at all because despite the fact that aaronsw's actions would have led to any other random computer geek being arrested with nary a second thought on HN, this computer geek is more deserving. After all, he's just trying to "do the right thing". Hell, in fact the prosecutor should be ashamed of daring bring any charge against someone who only went out of his way to visit some other campus than his own, evade a 1-file-at-a-time control, evade an IP ban, evade a MAC ban, evade a Wifi ban, and hide his face while trespassing in an unlocked server room, where the only reason he even got caught at all was because he simply wouldn't give up. Next thing you know they'll probably start ticketing jaywalkers.
    - ntumlin 14y ago
      Finally, someone who realizes he wasn't some magical saint who was murdered in a back alley. Any suicide is a tragedy, but it's ultimately no one's fault but Aaron's.
      - mcherm 14y ago
        The blame for the suicide ultimately cannot be laid anywhere but on Aaron's shoulders. But that does not mean that everything else is hunky dory. I would have (and DID) objected to the prosecutor's overzealous prosecution of this case even if Aaron had not died. Nor is it fully the fault of a single prosecutor who was using the same techniques used routinely. Perhaps a change to the system is needed. More simply: the ultimate fault may be (is) Aaron's, but that does not mean that it is "no one's fault but Aaron's" -- there is blame enough to go round.
  - Flenser 14y ago
    does "by any means necessary" include not throwing the book at him?
- philwelch 14y ago
  "otherwise superbly functioning"--highly functioning people don't kill themselves, not even in aaronsw's situation.
  - hackinthebochs 14y ago
    So we define proper mental health as people who would not ever kill themselves? How convenient for you.
    - philwelch 14y ago
      That's how it's usually defined, maybe with the exception of terminal illness or mortal injury.
      - hackinthebochs 14y ago
        And it doesn't bother you how circular that is? 1. Anyone who would kill themselves is not mentally well 2. We cannot allow you to kill yourself because you're not mentally well
        philwelch 14y ago
        There are exceptions; can you argue that this is one of them or do you just enjoy disagreeing with people?
        hackinthebochs 14y ago
        I'm not sure what point you're making regarding exceptions. But I don't believe those exceptions are enough. Being able to remove someone's right because you don't like how they choose to exercise it is no right at all. Either you believe in a right or you don't.
        philwelch 14y ago
        I didn't say anything about rights.

by wilfra 14y ago

jacquesm 14y ago

> I mean the alternative of him being dead. I got what you meant, but what ultimately did happen is not relevant when you're speculating, what should have happened is and the prosecutors suggestion is moronic. Part of the whole idea of having a justice system is that you do what's best for society. Putting otherwise superbly functioning human beings naked in a rubber room is such a spectacular waste of human potential that I really have a problem just contemplating such things, it is like having my head defiled.

wilfra 14y ago
Preventing him from killing himself, by any means necessary, would have been best for society. If he were in a psychiatric hospital the treatment wouldn't have been much different. They also use rubber rooms and cameras, if necessary. Outside of those two options, I'm not sure what you are implying could/should have been done. Was the prosecutor supposed to follow Aaron around 24/7 and physically stop him from hurting himself?
- hackinthebochs 14y ago
  >Preventing him from killing himself, by any means necessary, would have been best for society. Please explain this one to me. I would love to see what you come up with. I can think of about a thousand reasons why it isn't.
- Volpe 14y ago
  Or not pursue charges based on politics, and instead focus on the 'good of society'. Step back a bit. They charges didn't even need to be pursued. What "good" was ever going to come of it in any possible situation where charges were pursued?
  - wilfra 14y ago
    That's got nothing to do with how the prosecutor should respond to being told he is suicidal. I agree he shouldn't have been prosecuted.
    - Volpe 14y ago
      ... Yes it is. If I think these charges probably aren't going to do anything good, and they could kill someone, I might consider not pursuing them (being reasonable)... Easy to say this in hindsight, but it is not unrelated.
- mpyne 14y ago
  > Was the prosecutor supposed to follow Aaron around 24/7 and physically stop him from hurting himself? I think the prosecution was simply supposed to not charge him at all because despite the fact that aaronsw's actions would have led to any other random computer geek being arrested with nary a second thought on HN, this computer geek is more deserving. After all, he's just trying to "do the right thing". Hell, in fact the prosecutor should be ashamed of daring bring any charge against someone who only went out of his way to visit some other campus than his own, evade a 1-file-at-a-time control, evade an IP ban, evade a MAC ban, evade a Wifi ban, and hide his face while trespassing in an unlocked server room, where the only reason he even got caught at all was because he simply wouldn't give up. Next thing you know they'll probably start ticketing jaywalkers.
  - ntumlin 14y ago
    Finally, someone who realizes he wasn't some magical saint who was murdered in a back alley. Any suicide is a tragedy, but it's ultimately no one's fault but Aaron's.
    - mcherm 14y ago
      The blame for the suicide ultimately cannot be laid anywhere but on Aaron's shoulders. But that does not mean that everything else is hunky dory. I would have (and DID) objected to the prosecutor's overzealous prosecution of this case even if Aaron had not died. Nor is it fully the fault of a single prosecutor who was using the same techniques used routinely. Perhaps a change to the system is needed. More simply: the ultimate fault may be (is) Aaron's, but that does not mean that it is "no one's fault but Aaron's" -- there is blame enough to go round.
- Flenser 14y ago
  does "by any means necessary" include not throwing the book at him?
philwelch 14y ago
"otherwise superbly functioning"--highly functioning people don't kill themselves, not even in aaronsw's situation.
- hackinthebochs 14y ago
  So we define proper mental health as people who would not ever kill themselves? How convenient for you.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    That's how it's usually defined, maybe with the exception of terminal illness or mortal injury.
    - hackinthebochs 14y ago
      And it doesn't bother you how circular that is? 1. Anyone who would kill themselves is not mentally well 2. We cannot allow you to kill yourself because you're not mentally well
      - philwelch 14y ago
        There are exceptions; can you argue that this is one of them or do you just enjoy disagreeing with people?
        hackinthebochs 14y ago
        I'm not sure what point you're making regarding exceptions. But I don't believe those exceptions are enough. Being able to remove someone's right because you don't like how they choose to exercise it is no right at all. Either you believe in a right or you don't.
        philwelch 14y ago
        I didn't say anything about rights.