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I'm very sorry for your loss and for not properly qualifying what I said. I didn't consider that a person who has suffered through this very situation might rea

by wilfra 14y ago

I'm very sorry for your loss and for not properly qualifying what I said. I didn't consider that a person who has suffered through this very situation might read what I wrote. Yes many people do commit suicide in jail. But most of those people are not known to their jailers to be suicidal and thus the proper precautions cannot be taken. If the jailers know an inmate is suicidal (as Aarons would have if his lawyers told them) they are mandated by law to do everything in their power to prevent it. Right down to them being housed nude in a "rubber room" on 24/7 video surveillance. Of course, it's extremely difficult to stop a truly determined person from committing suicide but the risk level is certainly much lower if that person is in jail and known to be suicidal than if that person is free in society.

jacquesm 14y ago
> I didn't consider that a person who has suffered through this very situation might read what I wrote. That's par for the course these days. > If the jailers know an inmate is suicidal (as Aarons would have if his lawyers told them) they are mandated by law to do everything in their power to prevent it. Right down to them being housed nude in a "rubber room" on 24/7 video surveillance. I'm so glad to hear they had just the right environment for Aaron waiting to lovingly receive him. If my sarcasm is shining through then my apologies but I have a hard time dealing with all these well intentioned horror scenarios.
- wilfra 14y ago
  >>I'm so glad to hear they had just the right environment for Aaron waiting to lovingly receive him. However horrible that might have been, it would have been better than the alternative...
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    You mean the alternative of him being set free? You're arguing from a false dichotomy here, there are a lot more options than the ones that you see, and most of them are arguably a lot better than the ones you put forward.
    - wilfra 14y ago
      I mean the alternative of him being dead. Yes, there were other alternatives and jail certainly wasn't the best one. My point is simply that it would have been better than what ultimately happened, so given that, it's not so terrible the prosecutor suggested it.
      - jacquesm 14y ago
        > I mean the alternative of him being dead. I got what you meant, but what ultimately did happen is not relevant when you're speculating, what should have happened is and the prosecutors suggestion is moronic. Part of the whole idea of having a justice system is that you do what's best for society. Putting otherwise superbly functioning human beings naked in a rubber room is such a spectacular waste of human potential that I really have a problem just contemplating such things, it is like having my head defiled.
        wilfra 14y ago
        Preventing him from killing himself, by any means necessary, would have been best for society. If he were in a psychiatric hospital the treatment wouldn't have been much different. They also use rubber rooms and cameras, if necessary. Outside of those two options, I'm not sure what you are implying could/should have been done. Was the prosecutor supposed to follow Aaron around 24/7 and physically stop him from hurting himself?
        hackinthebochs 14y ago
        >Preventing him from killing himself, by any means necessary, would have been best for society. Please explain this one to me. I would love to see what you come up with. I can think of about a thousand reasons why it isn't.
        Volpe 14y ago
        Or not pursue charges based on politics, and instead focus on the 'good of society'. Step back a bit. They charges didn't even need to be pursued. What "good" was ever going to come of it in any possible situation where charges were pursued?
  - hackinthebochs 14y ago
    Says fucking who? No really. Why do some people think they get to decide what level of inhuman treatment is enough that choosing to end one's own life is the rational choice? If one does not have the right to end their own life, one was never truly free. The concept of physically restraining someone from committing suicide is completely antithetical to the idea of man being free. You cannot believe in one while advocating for the other.
    - zende 14y ago
      > The concept of physically restraining someone from committing suicide is completely antithetical to the idea of man being free. You cannot believe in one while advocating for the other. Suggesting that you put someone in a "rubber room" is a bit ridiculous, but it's normal to put someone that is suicidal under suicide watch. Keep in mind that mental health can be a huge factor in someone being suicidal. In other words, they're not thinking straight, so it's fair to help them during that time. Having the right to end your life is different than others trying to help you through a challenging time and show you that there are other ways out.
      - hackinthebochs 14y ago
        >Keep in mind that mental health can be a huge factor in someone being suicidal. In other words, they're not thinking straight, so it's fair to help them during that time. Using the mental health angle to deny someone their most basic right is fraught with issues. Mental health is often defined in terms of conforming to the standard behavior under various measures. We define mentally unhealthy as sufficiently deviant behavior and use that as a rationale for restricting that behavior. This is a thinly veiled attempt at forcing conformity under a scientific premise. Unless one can be demonstrated to be out of touch with reality, we have no right to physically intervene with someone exercising their right to self-determination. If you believe this right has caveats, then you simply never believed in it to begin with.
        zende 14y ago
        How do you "demonstrate one is out of touch reality"? That's just as difficult to define. My argument is that there's no black or white answer.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
redthrowaway 14y ago
So then Aaron would have gotten the Bradley Manning treatment. Great. I'm sure that would have helped.
kingkawn 14y ago
"If the jailers know an inmate is suicidal (as Aarons would have if his lawyers told them) they are mandated by law to do everything in their power to prevent it." There are a lot of wonderful resources about the American prison system that you should explore. You could check out prisoners legal services to start and see the ongoing case histories they are dealing with to get a partial view of what life is like in prison in America.

by wilfra 14y ago

jacquesm 14y ago

> I didn't consider that a person who has suffered through this very situation might read what I wrote. That's par for the course these days. > If the jailers know an inmate is suicidal (as Aarons would have if his lawyers told them) they are mandated by law to do everything in their power to prevent it. Right down to them being housed nude in a "rubber room" on 24/7 video surveillance. I'm so glad to hear they had just the right environment for Aaron waiting to lovingly receive him. If my sarcasm is shining through then my apologies but I have a hard time dealing with all these well intentioned horror scenarios.

wilfra 14y ago
>>I'm so glad to hear they had just the right environment for Aaron waiting to lovingly receive him. However horrible that might have been, it would have been better than the alternative...
- jacquesm 14y ago
  You mean the alternative of him being set free? You're arguing from a false dichotomy here, there are a lot more options than the ones that you see, and most of them are arguably a lot better than the ones you put forward.
  - wilfra 14y ago
    I mean the alternative of him being dead. Yes, there were other alternatives and jail certainly wasn't the best one. My point is simply that it would have been better than what ultimately happened, so given that, it's not so terrible the prosecutor suggested it.
    - jacquesm 14y ago
      > I mean the alternative of him being dead. I got what you meant, but what ultimately did happen is not relevant when you're speculating, what should have happened is and the prosecutors suggestion is moronic. Part of the whole idea of having a justice system is that you do what's best for society. Putting otherwise superbly functioning human beings naked in a rubber room is such a spectacular waste of human potential that I really have a problem just contemplating such things, it is like having my head defiled.
      - wilfra 14y ago
        Preventing him from killing himself, by any means necessary, would have been best for society. If he were in a psychiatric hospital the treatment wouldn't have been much different. They also use rubber rooms and cameras, if necessary. Outside of those two options, I'm not sure what you are implying could/should have been done. Was the prosecutor supposed to follow Aaron around 24/7 and physically stop him from hurting himself?
        hackinthebochs 14y ago
        >Preventing him from killing himself, by any means necessary, would have been best for society. Please explain this one to me. I would love to see what you come up with. I can think of about a thousand reasons why it isn't.
        Volpe 14y ago
        Or not pursue charges based on politics, and instead focus on the 'good of society'. Step back a bit. They charges didn't even need to be pursued. What "good" was ever going to come of it in any possible situation where charges were pursued?
- hackinthebochs 14y ago
  Says fucking who? No really. Why do some people think they get to decide what level of inhuman treatment is enough that choosing to end one's own life is the rational choice? If one does not have the right to end their own life, one was never truly free. The concept of physically restraining someone from committing suicide is completely antithetical to the idea of man being free. You cannot believe in one while advocating for the other.
  - zende 14y ago
    > The concept of physically restraining someone from committing suicide is completely antithetical to the idea of man being free. You cannot believe in one while advocating for the other. Suggesting that you put someone in a "rubber room" is a bit ridiculous, but it's normal to put someone that is suicidal under suicide watch. Keep in mind that mental health can be a huge factor in someone being suicidal. In other words, they're not thinking straight, so it's fair to help them during that time. Having the right to end your life is different than others trying to help you through a challenging time and show you that there are other ways out.
    - hackinthebochs 14y ago
      >Keep in mind that mental health can be a huge factor in someone being suicidal. In other words, they're not thinking straight, so it's fair to help them during that time. Using the mental health angle to deny someone their most basic right is fraught with issues. Mental health is often defined in terms of conforming to the standard behavior under various measures. We define mentally unhealthy as sufficiently deviant behavior and use that as a rationale for restricting that behavior. This is a thinly veiled attempt at forcing conformity under a scientific premise. Unless one can be demonstrated to be out of touch with reality, we have no right to physically intervene with someone exercising their right to self-determination. If you believe this right has caveats, then you simply never believed in it to begin with.
      - zende 14y ago
        How do you "demonstrate one is out of touch reality"? That's just as difficult to define. My argument is that there's no black or white answer.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

redthrowaway 14y ago

So then Aaron would have gotten the Bradley Manning treatment. Great. I'm sure that would have helped.

kingkawn 14y ago

"If the jailers know an inmate is suicidal (as Aarons would have if his lawyers told them) they are mandated by law to do everything in their power to prevent it." There are a lot of wonderful resources about the American prison system that you should explore. You could check out prisoners legal services to start and see the ongoing case histories they are dealing with to get a partial view of what life is like in prison in America.