7 ms·

"When one former lawyer told prosecutors that Swartz might kill himself, "Their response was, 'Put him in jail. He’ll be safe there.'" I know this seems heartl

by wilfra 14y ago

"When one former lawyer told prosecutors that Swartz might kill himself, "Their response was, 'Put him in jail. He’ll be safe there.'" I know this seems heartless and terrible at first glance but it's actually a pretty reasonable response. Prosecutors can't allow themselves to be swayed by emotional pleas like this and how are they to know if it's even true? Are they supposed to be lenient on any defendant whose lawyers say their client is suicidal? Isn't it obvious the end result would be every defendant claiming this? If anything, this shifts some blame to his lawyers for not taking his threat seriously enough. Somebody who is a danger to themselves is legally supposed to be locked up, typically in a psychiatric hospital. Jail would have been the second best place he could have been. In both he'd have been physically prevented from being able to commit suicide. Even if he would have had to suffer even more emotionally through the ordeal, he'd still be alive today.

phaus 14y ago
A psychiatric hospital would probably have helped, but being in jail does not stop people from committing suicide, and it's silly for you to suggest that it does. Source: My brother who killed himself while residing in the "second best place" for a suicidal person to be.
- wilfra 14y ago
  I'm very sorry for your loss and for not properly qualifying what I said. I didn't consider that a person who has suffered through this very situation might read what I wrote. Yes many people do commit suicide in jail. But most of those people are not known to their jailers to be suicidal and thus the proper precautions cannot be taken. If the jailers know an inmate is suicidal (as Aarons would have if his lawyers told them) they are mandated by law to do everything in their power to prevent it. Right down to them being housed nude in a "rubber room" on 24/7 video surveillance. Of course, it's extremely difficult to stop a truly determined person from committing suicide but the risk level is certainly much lower if that person is in jail and known to be suicidal than if that person is free in society.
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    > I didn't consider that a person who has suffered through this very situation might read what I wrote. That's par for the course these days. > If the jailers know an inmate is suicidal (as Aarons would have if his lawyers told them) they are mandated by law to do everything in their power to prevent it. Right down to them being housed nude in a "rubber room" on 24/7 video surveillance. I'm so glad to hear they had just the right environment for Aaron waiting to lovingly receive him. If my sarcasm is shining through then my apologies but I have a hard time dealing with all these well intentioned horror scenarios.
    - wilfra 14y ago
      >>I'm so glad to hear they had just the right environment for Aaron waiting to lovingly receive him. However horrible that might have been, it would have been better than the alternative...
      - jacquesm 14y ago
        You mean the alternative of him being set free? You're arguing from a false dichotomy here, there are a lot more options than the ones that you see, and most of them are arguably a lot better than the ones you put forward.
        wilfra 14y ago
        I mean the alternative of him being dead. Yes, there were other alternatives and jail certainly wasn't the best one. My point is simply that it would have been better than what ultimately happened, so given that, it's not so terrible the prosecutor suggested it.
        jacquesm 14y ago
        > I mean the alternative of him being dead. I got what you meant, but what ultimately did happen is not relevant when you're speculating, what should have happened is and the prosecutors suggestion is moronic. Part of the whole idea of having a justice system is that you do what's best for society. Putting otherwise superbly functioning human beings naked in a rubber room is such a spectacular waste of human potential that I really have a problem just contemplating such things, it is like having my head defiled.
- mistercow 14y ago
  To be fair, while psychiatric hospitals are pretty good at preventing suicide, it's not uncommon for them to be ineptly/corruptly run and cause a lot of emotional damage to already fragile people. Not that jail isn't worse, but at least jail doesn't make people who need doctors afraid of doctors.
neurotech1 14y ago
I disagree. Unless he is specifically on suicide watch, suicides in jail do happen. Also, and more importantly, even if they did send him for a 72-hour hold, it is quite possible that they wouldn't hold him for the full 72 hours, or ONLY 72 hours, and then release him.
- btilly 14y ago
  It is also likely that a brief arbitrary taste of jail would increase his fear of prison, thereby making a suicide more likely. The jail "offer" was clearly meant to be insulting and does not merit consideration as a serious option in this case.
rhizome 14y ago
Are you really implying that a prosecutor's threat to put you in jail for 30+ years wouldn't motivate you through emotions?
- whyenot 14y ago
  The negotiations were over whether he should serve any jail time at all.
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  The maximum sentence for a crime is defined by statute, rather than being some special threat by prosecutors. For wire fraud it's 20 years, even if your fraudulent scheme was designed to enrich you by only $1. Sentencing is determined by the court after conviction; it's unlikely that he would have been sentenced to more than a couple of years. This thing of focusing on the maximum possible sentence is a bad habit inculcated by the media. It's more instructive to look at the median sentence for this kind of crime.
  - SoftwareMaven 14y ago
    The prosecutors sure didn't hesitate to pull out the maximum sentence in their press release. They made it clear they wanted it all.
    - anigbrowl 14y ago
      That's what you get for having elected prosecutors. But quoting the statutory maximum as a matter of fact for a soundbite and asking the court to impose it (which it seems they were not about to do) are very different.
      - rhizome 14y ago
        Federal prosecutors are appointed, not elected.
        14y ago
blinkingled 14y ago
So essentially - since the thought of potential jailtime makes him suicidal let's just actually put him in jail and stop the suicide. Is that what you are implying? In that case I am speechless. Especially when the point of contention in this case was whether or not the prosecution was over zealous in demanding jail time in the first place.
- wilfra 14y ago
  It's not 'since the thought of...' it's just that 'since he is suicidal'. The fact that he was suicidal because of the thought of going to jail is irrelevant to the prosecutor, as it must be. They can't allow such emotional responses to weigh on their decision making or they wont be able to effectively do their job and they'll open themselves up to deceptive manipulation.
anigbrowl 14y ago
I wonder whether or not his defense lawyers filed any motions about Swartz's fitness to stand trial. If they really thought he was suicidal, that would be part of their job and it happens all the time.
- tptacek 14y ago
  To put forth that argument, would Swartz have needed to make himself subject to involuntary commitment? Could that have created more problems for him than it would have solved? He gets locked up, even before trial, and it could all be for nothing.
  - anigbrowl 14y ago
    I really don't know. But if his lawyers were discussing his mental fragiility with prosecutors, it seems to me that they would have had a duty to their client to bring such a possibility to the court's attention. If you really think your client is suicidal, treating his her mental state as a bargaining chip in negotiation without trying to put the trial on hold sounds ethically dubious. http://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/publications/model_rules_of_professional_conduct/rule_1_14_client_with_diminished_capacity.html http://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibilit...
edouard1234567 14y ago
On the contrary, prosecutors should allow themselves to be influenced by emotional pleas. I think your social responsibility to respond to these emotional signals increases as you have more power over others, not the other way around like you seem to suggest...
joering2 14y ago
> Are they supposed to be lenient on any defendant whose lawyers say their client is suicidal? Isn't it obvious the end result would be every defendant claiming this? It depends what you are trying to do: punish defendant for his crimes, or give an example for the public. Of course the (mental) health of defendant should be taken under consideration when sentencing.
- wilfra 14y ago
  This wasn't sentencing it was prosecution and I disagree that the mental health of the defendant should be taken into consideration when the cause of the mental health breakdown was facing the punishment for his crimes. If it led to them committing the crime in the first place, perhaps, such as a schizophrenic assaulting somebody, but that isn't the case here. Aaron got depressed because he was caught and prosecuted. That should not warrant them going easy on him. There are plenty of valid reasons the prosecutor here should be fired and laws changed, but Aaron's emotional response to being prosecuted is not one of them.
hamai 14y ago
>Somebody who is a danger to themselves is legally supposed to be locked up, typically in a psychiatric hospital. Jail would have been the second best place he could have been. He wasn't exactly the reckless insane type. Some people prefer death than jail, and it seems reasonable if you're able of empathy and really consider what a person goes through in jail. It's a matter personal freedom and it should be respected, otherwise one might be implying death was too good for him.
Nelson69 14y ago
I've resisted commenting on these threads, we'll all know more in the coming months. I do have a question as we're shifting blame and responsibility. Does anyone know if Aaron ever received treatment for his depression? Did he talk to any doctors or anything? Does anyone know? Just curious. Presumably folks close to him encouraged him to talk to somebody over the years.
rohitn 14y ago
I don't think it's reasonable for any of us to sit in front of our computers and say that his choices/decisions were reasonable or unreasonable. He was depressed and facing a 50 yr sentence and most of us don't know how that feels. But I will say this - http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/15/aaron-swartz-s-unbending-prosecutors-insisted-on-prison-time.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/15/aaron-swart... He had options. He could have got a plea bargin and stayed in jail for 4 months and pleaded guilty. Of course, nobody knows how this would have turned out until the prosecution plays it out in court, it could have been drastically less or more since it was a crime without physically harmed victims akin to violent crimes. He had influence, he could have still fought the fight like he always did and used his story to make clear the inefficiency and injustice served to him by the system that convicted him. This would have boosted his credibility up much more than where he's at now because he went through jail for his cause. My point is, there were many options, we don't consider all of them. He didn't need to become a martyr. As great as he appears to be dead, he would have been much greater alive.

by wilfra 14y ago

phaus 14y ago

A psychiatric hospital would probably have helped, but being in jail does not stop people from committing suicide, and it's silly for you to suggest that it does. Source: My brother who killed himself while residing in the "second best place" for a suicidal person to be.

wilfra 14y ago
I'm very sorry for your loss and for not properly qualifying what I said. I didn't consider that a person who has suffered through this very situation might read what I wrote. Yes many people do commit suicide in jail. But most of those people are not known to their jailers to be suicidal and thus the proper precautions cannot be taken. If the jailers know an inmate is suicidal (as Aarons would have if his lawyers told them) they are mandated by law to do everything in their power to prevent it. Right down to them being housed nude in a "rubber room" on 24/7 video surveillance. Of course, it's extremely difficult to stop a truly determined person from committing suicide but the risk level is certainly much lower if that person is in jail and known to be suicidal than if that person is free in society.
- jacquesm 14y ago
  > I didn't consider that a person who has suffered through this very situation might read what I wrote. That's par for the course these days. > If the jailers know an inmate is suicidal (as Aarons would have if his lawyers told them) they are mandated by law to do everything in their power to prevent it. Right down to them being housed nude in a "rubber room" on 24/7 video surveillance. I'm so glad to hear they had just the right environment for Aaron waiting to lovingly receive him. If my sarcasm is shining through then my apologies but I have a hard time dealing with all these well intentioned horror scenarios.
  - wilfra 14y ago
    >>I'm so glad to hear they had just the right environment for Aaron waiting to lovingly receive him. However horrible that might have been, it would have been better than the alternative...
    - jacquesm 14y ago
      You mean the alternative of him being set free? You're arguing from a false dichotomy here, there are a lot more options than the ones that you see, and most of them are arguably a lot better than the ones you put forward.
      - wilfra 14y ago
        I mean the alternative of him being dead. Yes, there were other alternatives and jail certainly wasn't the best one. My point is simply that it would have been better than what ultimately happened, so given that, it's not so terrible the prosecutor suggested it.
        jacquesm 14y ago
        > I mean the alternative of him being dead. I got what you meant, but what ultimately did happen is not relevant when you're speculating, what should have happened is and the prosecutors suggestion is moronic. Part of the whole idea of having a justice system is that you do what's best for society. Putting otherwise superbly functioning human beings naked in a rubber room is such a spectacular waste of human potential that I really have a problem just contemplating such things, it is like having my head defiled.
mistercow 14y ago
To be fair, while psychiatric hospitals are pretty good at preventing suicide, it's not uncommon for them to be ineptly/corruptly run and cause a lot of emotional damage to already fragile people. Not that jail isn't worse, but at least jail doesn't make people who need doctors afraid of doctors.

neurotech1 14y ago

I disagree. Unless he is specifically on suicide watch, suicides in jail do happen. Also, and more importantly, even if they did send him for a 72-hour hold, it is quite possible that they wouldn't hold him for the full 72 hours, or ONLY 72 hours, and then release him.

btilly 14y ago
It is also likely that a brief arbitrary taste of jail would increase his fear of prison, thereby making a suicide more likely. The jail "offer" was clearly meant to be insulting and does not merit consideration as a serious option in this case.

rhizome 14y ago

Are you really implying that a prosecutor's threat to put you in jail for 30+ years wouldn't motivate you through emotions?

whyenot 14y ago
The negotiations were over whether he should serve any jail time at all.
anigbrowl 14y ago
The maximum sentence for a crime is defined by statute, rather than being some special threat by prosecutors. For wire fraud it's 20 years, even if your fraudulent scheme was designed to enrich you by only $1. Sentencing is determined by the court after conviction; it's unlikely that he would have been sentenced to more than a couple of years. This thing of focusing on the maximum possible sentence is a bad habit inculcated by the media. It's more instructive to look at the median sentence for this kind of crime.
- SoftwareMaven 14y ago
  The prosecutors sure didn't hesitate to pull out the maximum sentence in their press release. They made it clear they wanted it all.
  - anigbrowl 14y ago
    That's what you get for having elected prosecutors. But quoting the statutory maximum as a matter of fact for a soundbite and asking the court to impose it (which it seems they were not about to do) are very different.
    - rhizome 14y ago
      Federal prosecutors are appointed, not elected.
      - 14y ago

blinkingled 14y ago

So essentially - since the thought of potential jailtime makes him suicidal let's just actually put him in jail and stop the suicide. Is that what you are implying? In that case I am speechless. Especially when the point of contention in this case was whether or not the prosecution was over zealous in demanding jail time in the first place.

wilfra 14y ago
It's not 'since the thought of...' it's just that 'since he is suicidal'. The fact that he was suicidal because of the thought of going to jail is irrelevant to the prosecutor, as it must be. They can't allow such emotional responses to weigh on their decision making or they wont be able to effectively do their job and they'll open themselves up to deceptive manipulation.

anigbrowl 14y ago

I wonder whether or not his defense lawyers filed any motions about Swartz's fitness to stand trial. If they really thought he was suicidal, that would be part of their job and it happens all the time.

tptacek 14y ago
To put forth that argument, would Swartz have needed to make himself subject to involuntary commitment? Could that have created more problems for him than it would have solved? He gets locked up, even before trial, and it could all be for nothing.
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  I really don't know. But if his lawyers were discussing his mental fragiility with prosecutors, it seems to me that they would have had a duty to their client to bring such a possibility to the court's attention. If you really think your client is suicidal, treating his her mental state as a bargaining chip in negotiation without trying to put the trial on hold sounds ethically dubious. http://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/publications/model_rules_of_professional_conduct/rule_1_14_client_with_diminished_capacity.html http://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibilit...

edouard1234567 14y ago

On the contrary, prosecutors should allow themselves to be influenced by emotional pleas. I think your social responsibility to respond to these emotional signals increases as you have more power over others, not the other way around like you seem to suggest...

joering2 14y ago

> Are they supposed to be lenient on any defendant whose lawyers say their client is suicidal? Isn't it obvious the end result would be every defendant claiming this? It depends what you are trying to do: punish defendant for his crimes, or give an example for the public. Of course the (mental) health of defendant should be taken under consideration when sentencing.

wilfra 14y ago
This wasn't sentencing it was prosecution and I disagree that the mental health of the defendant should be taken into consideration when the cause of the mental health breakdown was facing the punishment for his crimes. If it led to them committing the crime in the first place, perhaps, such as a schizophrenic assaulting somebody, but that isn't the case here. Aaron got depressed because he was caught and prosecuted. That should not warrant them going easy on him. There are plenty of valid reasons the prosecutor here should be fired and laws changed, but Aaron's emotional response to being prosecuted is not one of them.

hamai 14y ago

>Somebody who is a danger to themselves is legally supposed to be locked up, typically in a psychiatric hospital. Jail would have been the second best place he could have been. He wasn't exactly the reckless insane type. Some people prefer death than jail, and it seems reasonable if you're able of empathy and really consider what a person goes through in jail. It's a matter personal freedom and it should be respected, otherwise one might be implying death was too good for him.

Nelson69 14y ago

I've resisted commenting on these threads, we'll all know more in the coming months. I do have a question as we're shifting blame and responsibility. Does anyone know if Aaron ever received treatment for his depression? Did he talk to any doctors or anything? Does anyone know? Just curious. Presumably folks close to him encouraged him to talk to somebody over the years.

rohitn 14y ago

I don't think it's reasonable for any of us to sit in front of our computers and say that his choices/decisions were reasonable or unreasonable. He was depressed and facing a 50 yr sentence and most of us don't know how that feels. But I will say this - http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/15/aaron-swartz-s-unbending-prosecutors-insisted-on-prison-time.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/15/aaron-swart... He had options. He could have got a plea bargin and stayed in jail for 4 months and pleaded guilty. Of course, nobody knows how this would have turned out until the prosecution plays it out in court, it could have been drastically less or more since it was a crime without physically harmed victims akin to violent crimes. He had influence, he could have still fought the fight like he always did and used his story to make clear the inefficiency and injustice served to him by the system that convicted him. This would have boosted his credibility up much more than where he's at now because he went through jail for his cause. My point is, there were many options, we don't consider all of them. He didn't need to become a martyr. As great as he appears to be dead, he would have been much greater alive.