8 ms·

Dear Apple: I give up, WireframeApp will become open source

179 points by eduardordm 14y ago

ary 14y ago
Was the "GO TO HELL" really necessary? Frustration is understandable, but what do you gain from abusing a customer support person at a large and influential technology company and then vanity posting it to the internet? Let's say the recipient of your "Dear Apple" email decided to forgive and forget; what you've got left is an announcement to the rest of us about your inability to be civil under stress. Temporary relief aside it pays to be polite. Even on the internet.
- eduardordm 14y ago
  Yeah, I think I went too far. But believe me, this came to the point where I almost cried of anger. The sentiment of powerlessness is strong.
  - djt 14y ago
    Probably a good lesson there in developing for walled garden environments.
  - publicfig 14y ago
    All part of being an entrepreneur. It's important to be able to handle these kinds of setbacks and if you're not capable of it either become capable or stop trying.
  - benatkin 14y ago
    You should be experiencing frustration, not anger. The anger indicates that you have unreasonable expectations about starting a business.
danso 14y ago
> I’ve been building this application for longer than I would like to admit. It looks nice. It is incredibly fast. It’s useful (I’ve been using it a LOT). I learned Objective-C while building it. It will never be a hit but some people would definitely pay the 2,99 USD I was planning to sell it for. The roadblocks you faced are just silly...but at least you got something out of it (learning Objective-C, the respect of other hackers)...I always try to have a Plan B for any mini-project I work on.... Plan A is that people like and use it. Plan B is I learned a technology/library that I hadn't used before. (sometimes I switch the priority of those two things around). Hopefully your continued tinkering and exploring gets you a more satisfying job.
rjsamson 14y ago
This was posted a little while back and outlines the process for getting a DUNS number free, within 5 days: http://blog.metamorphium.com/2012/12/03/apple-duns/ http://blog.metamorphium.com/2012/12/03/apple-duns/
- killion 14y ago
  The form referenced on that post wasn't working a week or two. I just tried it and it's working again.
- ghurlman 14y ago
  Well now, this is odd. I don't know if it's because of the recent background check done by the US Government, or associating with the Microsoft App Store -- either of which (timing-wise) seemed to prompt Dunn & Bradstreet to call me and sell on their services -- but I started the Apple process to secure a number, and the helpfully found the number I apparently already had and emailed it to me. I never went to D&B to get one, so... anyone know why I have one already?
- apike 14y ago
  The process described only works in the US. Internationally, you need to contact DNB and go through the multi-week horror. Eduardo appears to be in Brazil.
  - k-mcgrady 14y ago
    In the UK I used this[1] and got the number instantly. [1]http://salesmarketing.dnb.co.uk/find_my_company/ http://salesmarketing.dnb.co.uk/find_my_company/
    - eblade 14y ago
      Same here. I used D-U-N-S Profile Lookup[1] and entered the company's detail (Singapore company). An hour later, I received an email containing the D-U-N-S number from noreply-appledev@apple.com [1]https://developer.apple.com/ios/enroll/dunsLookupForm.action https://developer.apple.com/ios/enroll/dunsLookupForm.action
stewie2 14y ago
how long do we need to wait before apple approves an app? I'm about to ship mine. I heard it used to be 2 weeks, isn't it?
- nathanpc 14y ago
  Usually 2 weeks.
  - rex_gsd 14y ago
    Depends if you get rejected. Some of the apps we ship have been bounced back by apple 5+ times for very minor reasons taking up to 8 weeks to get approval in one very worst case. Though the average is usually 2 weeks.
- andrewroycarter 14y ago
  http://reviewtimes.shinydevelopment.com http://reviewtimes.shinydevelopment.com Looking like 6 days at the moment!
- bennyg 14y ago
  I had an update get pushed in 4 days (two Saturdays ago till the Wednesday after), and just submit a new app this Saturday. For those interested, here's a shameless plug: http://subvertapps.com/HN http://subvertapps.com/HN - it's a HN reader with, what I think, is the best UI on the App Store for it. Edit: I should say it's about to come out. Once Apple accepts it. This is more of a sneak-peek.
  - dolphenstein 14y ago
    Already have a HN reader app. My browser.
    - bennyg 14y ago
      I assume you take your desktop and monitor on the subway with you too, right? ;) I made it for me, then decided to hell with it, I'll submit it so others can read stories/comments too.
nathanpc 14y ago
Your plan is to just throw this on GitHub and hope for the best? If it is you should definitely consider waiting for the DUNS number, the amount of users you're going to reach in the App Store compared to on GitHub is just enormous, also your app looks great and I would buy it for sure, but I would compile it myself because of the effort it would take.
rex_gsd 14y ago
Don't feel too down. The first time I wrote a major software business project for myself I saved up $50k (To cover rent, living and utilities), resigned from work and spent a year developing it. I ran out of money and it never sold very well and I definitely am yet to recoup anywhere near the costs of development but eventually I realised while I'd not gained any financial benefits I had picked up some very good skills as a web developer which were in great demand on the local jobs market. I started that year knowing no javascript and very little html, css or other web technologies. With the new skills I was able to land a great job as a web developer and am always working on side projects. Even if Apple have screwed you over, don't get disheartened ... they can't screw you out of the skills you've learnt; they're invaluable. Keep that in mind when you're feeling down.
k-mcgrady 14y ago
The DUNS number is nothing to do with Apple, it's all handled by a separate company and something used internationally by many companies, not just Apple. 1. Why don't you just register as an individual and then convert the account to a company one once you get your DUNS number? 2. Why is it taking so longer to get the DUNS number? I registered my business with the government then applied for the DUNS number and got it instantly via email[1]. [1]http://www.dnb.co.uk http://www.dnb.co.uk
- eduardordm 14y ago
  In every country they have a branch, each with different prices and delivery times. In Brazil I was asked 60 working days for the free service.
  - barredo 14y ago
    So it's Brazilian bureaucracy the one stopping you right? I'm just curious
    - eduardordm 14y ago
      D&B Brazil, yes.
      - sbuk 14y ago
        So why is this Apple's problem again?
  - Steko 14y ago
    You missed this part: "Why don't you just register as an individual"
  - upinsmoke 14y ago
    Wow. I got mine in 2 minutes.
- mikeash 14y ago
  The DUNS number has nothing to do with Apple, except for the critical fact that Apple requires one when they don't have to.
Yahivin 14y ago
You can still release it to the app store later if things come around! Hopefully sharing the code will improve the quality of the app as well as inspire others.
itsnotvalid 14y ago
I guess you may try the news:yc way, open source it and sell it in App Store at the same time.
- billforsternz 14y ago
  Can you elaborate on why you call this the news:yc strategy ?
socialist_coder 14y ago
Why not just team up with a publisher? They submit the app using their Apple ID, they help with marketing, reviews, etc. They get a cut of the profits, but it sounds like it would be worth it in your case.
- jonny_eh 14y ago
  I guess if it comes down to that, we're now back to the bad old ways of publishing software, what a bummer.
  - Firehed 14y ago
    Middle men only exist when they add value to the equation, except in extreme circumstances. People that want to do everything themselves can do so, but they may not have the resources (time, skill, or money) to be effective at all that stuff that would otherwise magically happen. I just submitted my first app to the App Store on Sunday (yay, review time!) and as I was doing so realized there was a ton of stuff I had never really considered.
- hfz 14y ago
  Can you link to an example of these publishers? My Google-fu fails me.
  - socialist_coder 14y ago
    You're right, it was very difficult. I guess this type of publishing is only common with games, but Chillingo does say they publish non-games as well. http://www.chillingo.com/developers/ http://www.chillingo.com/developers/
tomasien 14y ago
I totally agree, the DUNS number thing is insane, but you can release the app as an individual without a DUNS ID number.
eridius 14y ago
Why do you even need a DUNS number? If you're an individual person, just get an individual account and sell it that way. Honestly, this seems a bit like a publicity stunt to me. Everyone loves hating on Apple these days, and if you can tie it to "look at my new opensource project", then BAM, it hits HN front page.
- eduardordm 14y ago
  I opened a company specifically for this (ipad/iphone development) it was my plan to leave my current company and build something less stressful. I reached a point where I'm no longer interested in building apps for the app store, apple asks too much and give us too little. I posted on HN because most readers are also programmers and they are exactly whom will fork the project, etc. That said, yep, it can be considered a 'publicity stunt', but you make it sound as something bad. I really just want that those interested get in touch.
  - Steko 14y ago
    "you make it sound as something bad" Because you've basically admitted that your post is disingenuous. The DUNS requirement is easily sidestepped in the short term and a complete non-issue in the long term.
    - dutchbrit 14y ago
      But it really shouldn't be an issue in the first place, right?
      - pretoriusB 14y ago
        It's not, except if you are a company. And if you are a company, you have a lot more paperwork to worry about than just DUNS. Plus, it helps keep out the less motivated.
  - ghshephard 14y ago
    I'm confused - if you opened a company, then there is obviously going to be a lot more paperwork/hoops to jump through than if you did this as an individual. Maybe I'm missing something here - why didn't you just publish the App as an individual?
teh_klev 14y ago
"and was told I need to wait another month" "The source code will become public as soon as all drawing tools (those white boxes on the tool bar) are functional. This should take some days (around 20-40 LOC per tool) I’m also trying to clean some some mess (lots on unused assets, etc)" I may have read this the wrong way, but it sounds like your app is incomplete and you've got at least another 20-30 days development to get things feature complete and thoroughly tested. Would Apple even accept the app to the App Store in it's current state? If it was me I'd have plugged away at the red tape during those 20-30 days of development before chucking the towel in.
- utunga 14y ago
  I notice that eduardordm has not actually released this code on github yet. I'd forgive you Eduardo if you end up changing your mind....
  - eduardordm 14y ago
    not changing my mind at all. In fact, I'm in rush to release it even sooner.
- eduardordm 14y ago
  I stopped the development when I was told to wait (nov 26th). Those are just scripts that render objects, the app is fully developed. In fact, they are PDFs drawn in adobe illustrator and just added to a JSON file. The lines of code are just stub classes.
  - benatkin 14y ago
    It might be fully programmed but it isn't fully developed. Development includes more than just code.
drivebyacct2 14y ago
If only there were another platform to develop for.
- eduardordm 14y ago
  At first I was interested in Android, really. Mostly because I'm an experienced Java programmer. Out of curiosity I started playing with Objective-C and Xcode and loved it. I was also building some toys for android, but I felt I was not learning anything cool, so I lost interest. It was more about curiosity, really.
vtail 14y ago
Why this is even on the front page? Someone who doesn't have patience decides that selling apps for money is not for them. Fine. Entrepreneurship requires a lot of hard work and patience. You need to be resourceful.[1] Big news. 1: http://www.paulgraham.com/relres.html http://www.paulgraham.com/relres.html
- ruswick 14y ago
  Evidently, people tend to congregate around posts that bash Apple or decry some flaw with the system around which many people spend their time and money. It doesn't need to be substantive or revelatory to be on front page; it just needs to be sensational and attractive. It should be no surprise considering the shit that passes for "news" on most blogs and lesser publications.
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  Yeah, I can hardly wait until he applies for a GSA contract...
- PGenes 14y ago
  The real mystery is why are there so many Apple fan boys in this thread? The company's walled garden approach absolutely sucks. And there's nothing fashionable about saying so.
lessnonymous 14y ago
I don't see what problem you're solving by open sourcing, therefore this is just a misguided publicity grab. * The "open letter" goes from addressing Apple to addressing potential developers. * What does open-sourcing give you other than people to help you write code for free? You still can't put the app on the app store and therefore can't release it to users. You can get it on third-party app stores instantly already. I don't see what problem you're solving by open sourcing, therefore this is just a misguided publicity grab. If this hiccup is going to stop you creating new things, you're not going to get far.
- eduardordm 14y ago
  The problem itself (taking too long to publish the app because of duns number requirement) can't be solved without waiting (or money), really. I'm not really solving any problem by open sourcing it, but as I give up developing for the app store my idea is to open source it, build a small group of developers, find someone smarter than me to work with. I don't think selling apps on the app store is a viable source on income for small developers right now. Yes, we hear a lot of success cases, but the number of failures are enormous. I created! I'm just giving up selling it.
  - terrywilcox 14y ago
    It's best that you give up now. The app submission and approval process also requires patience. As do all the stupid users with their stupid questions and stupid one star reviews because they don't understand how it works. And the paperwork around income statements, balance sheets, depreciation, and taxes is horrible. Business licenses, legal documents, blah blah blah. Like I said, it's best that you quit before you even get to the really frustrating stuff.
stefan_kendall 14y ago
It's fraud. http://www.stefankendall.com/2013/01/duns-secret-startup-cost-of-ios.html http://www.stefankendall.com/2013/01/duns-secret-startup-cos... The press department has been contacting me, but I refuse their calls. DUNS needs to DIE.
nanijoe 14y ago
To be honest, it seems these days like Apple is trying their best to reduce the number of [small] developers that publish to the App Store. I have been selling on the app store for close to 3 years, and in the last 6 months, pretty much every thing that somewhat levels the playing field has been taken away by Apple. The new releases list used to be every apps's chance to be visible for at least 24 - 48 hrs, and if enough people bought your app, it made its way to the top in category list, which in turn gave it visibility as long as people kept buying your app. Apple has removed the new releases list, and have made it very difficult for people to find the top in category lists. The only prominent lists now, are the hand picked apps in the featured category. I find it hard to believe that all this is not intentional. My advise to anyone seeking to develop mobile apps right now? Think it through before you jump in.
- bennyg 14y ago
  Fuck this mentality. What do we, as a collective community, say to the companies that can't mutate their business models because a player in the field has changed things up (for better or worse)? We tell them to change or die. Why is this any different? So what you can't depend on a "New Release" list anymore - do something else to get attention. That's basically a fundamental part of our creed, as hackers and as creators.
  - djt 14y ago
    iOS is fundamentally a business, it's within their rights to do as they please. It makes sense to make the most profit and that probably means moving from small iDev businesses to large ones (ie SEGA etc) that are happy to spend a lot of money pushing their apps. I agree with you though and I think the hackers will move elsewhere. Im excited to see if people move across to android etc for exactly this reason. iOS will taper off eventually but Apple will milk every cent before that happens.
    - flyinRyan 14y ago
      Why would a developer move to Android? Even today it's harder to get sales on Android. I would expect devs to move to the web or possibly make a bet on one of the other platforms.
tubbo 14y ago
<3 we love you eduardo and are eagerly awaiting your pull requests - DIASPORA
Foomandoonian 14y ago
I'm always sad when people treat open source as a dumping ground for abandoned/old/unprofitable projects. The rest of my sympathy went away when he misspelled 'substantial' and signed off with an all-caps 'GO TO HELL'. Classy. I'm probably just a snob.
- Gigablah 14y ago
  You probably just lack empathy.
- eduardordm 14y ago
  You are not a snob. But, make no mistake, this is probably a profitable project. In fact, I was planning on making a living out it! I promise I'm not just dumping this I misspell a lot, sorry, english is not my first language (not even second, actually). Normally I use a spell checker, somehow that passed. Yep, the e-mail didn't end very well. My point was to try to convey rage to the reader (crazy guy punching computer). Just like people yelling at airline employees when something happens to their flights.
  - sbuk 14y ago
    In my opinion, your rage is misplaced and make you look as though you haven't thought things through at all. Do you really think it is just a case that writing an app will instantly lead to $$$?
joey_muller 14y ago
Your app looks very cool. Best of luck to you.
niggler 14y ago
I remember Remy Sharp complaining about apple taking too long, resulting in https://github.com/remy/jsconsole-iphone https://github.com/remy/jsconsole-iphone
ricardobeat 14y ago
Apparently there are faster/easier ways to obtain a DUNS number: http://blog.metamorphium.com/2012/12/03/apple-duns/ http://blog.metamorphium.com/2012/12/03/apple-duns/ http://dominikbalogh.com/post/20605187847/how-to-quickly-obtain-d-u-n-s-number-for-ios-enterprise http://dominikbalogh.com/post/20605187847/how-to-quickly-obt... Though, individual accounts don't require one - why did you need an enterprise account for a standard app (no enterprise installs)?
- eduardordm 14y ago
  DUNS number is now a requirement for all companies, not just enterprise deploys. Methods above won't work on Brazil, you need to actually call them to request the number. (They send you a .xls to fill out).
  - ricardobeat 14y ago
    The question was why you'd need a company account instead of an individual one - I see you have already answered that elsewhere. The second link (.de) seems to offer registration for Brazil, though I haven't done that myself.
visualR 14y ago
So now HN is upvoting whiners and quitters?
- sbuk 14y ago
  And clearly downloading anyone that disagrees.
interpol_p 14y ago
As mentioned by eblade — could you have simply used this to get a DUNS number? https://developer.apple.com/ios/enroll/dunsLookupForm.action https://developer.apple.com/ios/enroll/dunsLookupForm.action
ndesaulniers 14y ago
Please, put your creative talent to good use on the web. Break free of the walled gardens that snarl and entrap you!
cmccabe 14y ago
Don't release it under the GPL. Due to Apple app store restrictions, GPL'ed apps cannot be distributed that way. It's probably best to pick a BSD or Apache style license. Being an app developer is frustrating even on Android. Getting publicity for your app is difficult. Margins are thinner than you think because prices are low and your time isn't free. My feeling is that the market is currently oversupplied with app developers and it needs to cool down. More posts like this would be good to counter the gold rush mentality of the past few years. There just isn't that much money in apps, unless you own the App store. I also don't see learning Objective C as being that useful, unless you want to continue being an iOS developer... which it seems that you don't. Remember, your main career goal as a developer is not to paint yourself into a corner.
- eduo 14y ago
  Wrongo. Him being the sole owner of the property can simply release the code under the GPL and use Apple's license for the Store's binaries. There are no GPL'ed apps. There is GPL'ed code. Owners of the code can decide to do multiple licenses depending on what they want to do with it. If I make an app I can make it GPL and then keep on developing it myself and after a ton of changes release a proprietary app and then another ton of changes and that third version of the code make it GPL as well and at the same time put the binary up on a place like the App Store and at the same time put the code somewhere else with a BSD license and then again somewhere else post it as public domain. It'd be a silly thing to do, but as the owner of the property its your prerogative what you do with it. This silliness about the GPL and the Store needs to stop. It's misinformation all-round. A different thing is that you can't take someone's GPL code and build an App Store app with it (unless you get permission and a special license from all owners of the copyright). As for Objective-C it works for other platforms and if he actually prefers just Cocoa he still has OS X as a potential platform (plus whatever Apple decides to incorporate in the future, if they ever expand). Your main career goal as a developer should be making a living developing and, ideally, make boatloads of cash. Painting yourself into a corner may, if anything, be bad strategy; but only if it hinders that objective. Posts like these are not good because they're misinformed and spread misinformation. They transfer blame so they do nothing to assuage the actual problems: 1.-People who plan on making a living developing should have a backup plan. It may not be as easy as they think. 2.-People who plan on making a living developing and are smart about having a backup plan should first "test the waters" before they go full-blown corporate. Develop and release some apps as an individual. See how they behave. Especially if they're your first apps after learning the language and the platform. 3.-Setting up companies is hard and tests everyone's patience. This needs to be ACCEPTED. No matter what your rush, the bureaucracy walks at its own glacial pace. Better understand it early. Also: Frustration shouldn't equal anger. 4.-Document yourself. DUNS is an industry-standard. It's a horrible one and they are scammy and artifically bureaucratic (so they can sell you the shortcuts) but the requirement it's been there for a while and there's plenty of information on how to make it less painful. 5.-Learn where to put blame and focus your frustration. Ask around and find shortcuts and workarounds. DUNS is not Apple and while Apple's requirement of DUNS is frustrating it has its reasons. If selling in the store makes sense to you financially then wait out the free registration from DUNS or decide to pay to get it faster. If patience is not your virtue you might not be shaped to be an entrepeneur anyway, so Eduardodm should thank DUNS from helping him get out early, as this is nothing compared to what was yet to come.
farabove 14y ago
Lame, You are mostly doing something wrong. When I needed a DUNS here in Norway it took me less then 48 hours at no cost, I just went to this site http://fedgov.dnb.com/webform http://fedgov.dnb.com/webform
zbruhnke 14y ago
I wrote a blog post about how to get around this here: http://www.zachbruhnke.com/how-to-get-a-duns-number-for-free-today http://www.zachbruhnke.com/how-to-get-a-duns-number-for-free... its currently somewhere on the New page, upvote it if its useful
pretoriusB 14y ago
>I give up making software for you app store. Your DUNS number requirement was the last straw. I’ve been waiting 2 months for this number and was told I need to wait another month (60 working days total) unless I pay a substancial amount of money. So, please, GO TO HELL. And yet tons of other developers and companies seem to do just fine in the App Store, without juvenile crap like this. A rant like this coming from people that have been seriously screw by Apple, I would understand. But you don't even have the app made yet by your own admission. You have a half-finished app, that "you learned Objective-C while building it". And somehow it's the DUNS that slows down your path to world domination and profit? Why do you need a DUNS in the first place? An individual doesn't need one, and a company knows better than to blame another company for something a THIRD company handles and that even the government makes a requirement to do business with you.

179 points by eduardordm 14y ago

ary 14y ago

Was the "GO TO HELL" really necessary? Frustration is understandable, but what do you gain from abusing a customer support person at a large and influential technology company and then vanity posting it to the internet? Let's say the recipient of your "Dear Apple" email decided to forgive and forget; what you've got left is an announcement to the rest of us about your inability to be civil under stress. Temporary relief aside it pays to be polite. Even on the internet.

eduardordm 14y ago
Yeah, I think I went too far. But believe me, this came to the point where I almost cried of anger. The sentiment of powerlessness is strong.
- djt 14y ago
  Probably a good lesson there in developing for walled garden environments.
- publicfig 14y ago
  All part of being an entrepreneur. It's important to be able to handle these kinds of setbacks and if you're not capable of it either become capable or stop trying.
- benatkin 14y ago
  You should be experiencing frustration, not anger. The anger indicates that you have unreasonable expectations about starting a business.

danso 14y ago

> I’ve been building this application for longer than I would like to admit. It looks nice. It is incredibly fast. It’s useful (I’ve been using it a LOT). I learned Objective-C while building it. It will never be a hit but some people would definitely pay the 2,99 USD I was planning to sell it for. The roadblocks you faced are just silly...but at least you got something out of it (learning Objective-C, the respect of other hackers)...I always try to have a Plan B for any mini-project I work on.... Plan A is that people like and use it. Plan B is I learned a technology/library that I hadn't used before. (sometimes I switch the priority of those two things around). Hopefully your continued tinkering and exploring gets you a more satisfying job.

rjsamson 14y ago

This was posted a little while back and outlines the process for getting a DUNS number free, within 5 days: http://blog.metamorphium.com/2012/12/03/apple-duns/ http://blog.metamorphium.com/2012/12/03/apple-duns/

killion 14y ago
The form referenced on that post wasn't working a week or two. I just tried it and it's working again.
ghurlman 14y ago
Well now, this is odd. I don't know if it's because of the recent background check done by the US Government, or associating with the Microsoft App Store -- either of which (timing-wise) seemed to prompt Dunn & Bradstreet to call me and sell on their services -- but I started the Apple process to secure a number, and the helpfully found the number I apparently already had and emailed it to me. I never went to D&B to get one, so... anyone know why I have one already?
apike 14y ago
The process described only works in the US. Internationally, you need to contact DNB and go through the multi-week horror. Eduardo appears to be in Brazil.
- k-mcgrady 14y ago
  In the UK I used this[1] and got the number instantly. [1]http://salesmarketing.dnb.co.uk/find_my_company/ http://salesmarketing.dnb.co.uk/find_my_company/
  - eblade 14y ago
    Same here. I used D-U-N-S Profile Lookup[1] and entered the company's detail (Singapore company). An hour later, I received an email containing the D-U-N-S number from noreply-appledev@apple.com [1]https://developer.apple.com/ios/enroll/dunsLookupForm.action https://developer.apple.com/ios/enroll/dunsLookupForm.action

stewie2 14y ago

how long do we need to wait before apple approves an app? I'm about to ship mine. I heard it used to be 2 weeks, isn't it?

nathanpc 14y ago
Usually 2 weeks.
- rex_gsd 14y ago
  Depends if you get rejected. Some of the apps we ship have been bounced back by apple 5+ times for very minor reasons taking up to 8 weeks to get approval in one very worst case. Though the average is usually 2 weeks.
andrewroycarter 14y ago
http://reviewtimes.shinydevelopment.com http://reviewtimes.shinydevelopment.com Looking like 6 days at the moment!
bennyg 14y ago
I had an update get pushed in 4 days (two Saturdays ago till the Wednesday after), and just submit a new app this Saturday. For those interested, here's a shameless plug: http://subvertapps.com/HN http://subvertapps.com/HN - it's a HN reader with, what I think, is the best UI on the App Store for it. Edit: I should say it's about to come out. Once Apple accepts it. This is more of a sneak-peek.
- dolphenstein 14y ago
  Already have a HN reader app. My browser.
  - bennyg 14y ago
    I assume you take your desktop and monitor on the subway with you too, right? ;) I made it for me, then decided to hell with it, I'll submit it so others can read stories/comments too.

nathanpc 14y ago

Your plan is to just throw this on GitHub and hope for the best? If it is you should definitely consider waiting for the DUNS number, the amount of users you're going to reach in the App Store compared to on GitHub is just enormous, also your app looks great and I would buy it for sure, but I would compile it myself because of the effort it would take.

rex_gsd 14y ago

Don't feel too down. The first time I wrote a major software business project for myself I saved up $50k (To cover rent, living and utilities), resigned from work and spent a year developing it. I ran out of money and it never sold very well and I definitely am yet to recoup anywhere near the costs of development but eventually I realised while I'd not gained any financial benefits I had picked up some very good skills as a web developer which were in great demand on the local jobs market. I started that year knowing no javascript and very little html, css or other web technologies. With the new skills I was able to land a great job as a web developer and am always working on side projects. Even if Apple have screwed you over, don't get disheartened ... they can't screw you out of the skills you've learnt; they're invaluable. Keep that in mind when you're feeling down.

k-mcgrady 14y ago

The DUNS number is nothing to do with Apple, it's all handled by a separate company and something used internationally by many companies, not just Apple. 1. Why don't you just register as an individual and then convert the account to a company one once you get your DUNS number? 2. Why is it taking so longer to get the DUNS number? I registered my business with the government then applied for the DUNS number and got it instantly via email[1]. [1]http://www.dnb.co.uk http://www.dnb.co.uk

eduardordm 14y ago
In every country they have a branch, each with different prices and delivery times. In Brazil I was asked 60 working days for the free service.
- barredo 14y ago
  So it's Brazilian bureaucracy the one stopping you right? I'm just curious
  - eduardordm 14y ago
    D&B Brazil, yes.
    - sbuk 14y ago
      So why is this Apple's problem again?
- Steko 14y ago
  You missed this part: "Why don't you just register as an individual"
- upinsmoke 14y ago
  Wow. I got mine in 2 minutes.
mikeash 14y ago
The DUNS number has nothing to do with Apple, except for the critical fact that Apple requires one when they don't have to.

Yahivin 14y ago

You can still release it to the app store later if things come around! Hopefully sharing the code will improve the quality of the app as well as inspire others.

itsnotvalid 14y ago

I guess you may try the news:yc way, open source it and sell it in App Store at the same time.

billforsternz 14y ago
Can you elaborate on why you call this the news:yc strategy ?

socialist_coder 14y ago

Why not just team up with a publisher? They submit the app using their Apple ID, they help with marketing, reviews, etc. They get a cut of the profits, but it sounds like it would be worth it in your case.

jonny_eh 14y ago
I guess if it comes down to that, we're now back to the bad old ways of publishing software, what a bummer.
- Firehed 14y ago
  Middle men only exist when they add value to the equation, except in extreme circumstances. People that want to do everything themselves can do so, but they may not have the resources (time, skill, or money) to be effective at all that stuff that would otherwise magically happen. I just submitted my first app to the App Store on Sunday (yay, review time!) and as I was doing so realized there was a ton of stuff I had never really considered.
hfz 14y ago
Can you link to an example of these publishers? My Google-fu fails me.
- socialist_coder 14y ago
  You're right, it was very difficult. I guess this type of publishing is only common with games, but Chillingo does say they publish non-games as well. http://www.chillingo.com/developers/ http://www.chillingo.com/developers/

tomasien 14y ago

I totally agree, the DUNS number thing is insane, but you can release the app as an individual without a DUNS ID number.

eridius 14y ago

Why do you even need a DUNS number? If you're an individual person, just get an individual account and sell it that way. Honestly, this seems a bit like a publicity stunt to me. Everyone loves hating on Apple these days, and if you can tie it to "look at my new opensource project", then BAM, it hits HN front page.

eduardordm 14y ago
I opened a company specifically for this (ipad/iphone development) it was my plan to leave my current company and build something less stressful. I reached a point where I'm no longer interested in building apps for the app store, apple asks too much and give us too little. I posted on HN because most readers are also programmers and they are exactly whom will fork the project, etc. That said, yep, it can be considered a 'publicity stunt', but you make it sound as something bad. I really just want that those interested get in touch.
- Steko 14y ago
  "you make it sound as something bad" Because you've basically admitted that your post is disingenuous. The DUNS requirement is easily sidestepped in the short term and a complete non-issue in the long term.
  - dutchbrit 14y ago
    But it really shouldn't be an issue in the first place, right?
    - pretoriusB 14y ago
      It's not, except if you are a company. And if you are a company, you have a lot more paperwork to worry about than just DUNS. Plus, it helps keep out the less motivated.
- ghshephard 14y ago
  I'm confused - if you opened a company, then there is obviously going to be a lot more paperwork/hoops to jump through than if you did this as an individual. Maybe I'm missing something here - why didn't you just publish the App as an individual?

teh_klev 14y ago

"and was told I need to wait another month" "The source code will become public as soon as all drawing tools (those white boxes on the tool bar) are functional. This should take some days (around 20-40 LOC per tool) I’m also trying to clean some some mess (lots on unused assets, etc)" I may have read this the wrong way, but it sounds like your app is incomplete and you've got at least another 20-30 days development to get things feature complete and thoroughly tested. Would Apple even accept the app to the App Store in it's current state? If it was me I'd have plugged away at the red tape during those 20-30 days of development before chucking the towel in.

utunga 14y ago
I notice that eduardordm has not actually released this code on github yet. I'd forgive you Eduardo if you end up changing your mind....
- eduardordm 14y ago
  not changing my mind at all. In fact, I'm in rush to release it even sooner.
eduardordm 14y ago
I stopped the development when I was told to wait (nov 26th). Those are just scripts that render objects, the app is fully developed. In fact, they are PDFs drawn in adobe illustrator and just added to a JSON file. The lines of code are just stub classes.
- benatkin 14y ago
  It might be fully programmed but it isn't fully developed. Development includes more than just code.

drivebyacct2 14y ago

If only there were another platform to develop for.

eduardordm 14y ago
At first I was interested in Android, really. Mostly because I'm an experienced Java programmer. Out of curiosity I started playing with Objective-C and Xcode and loved it. I was also building some toys for android, but I felt I was not learning anything cool, so I lost interest. It was more about curiosity, really.

vtail 14y ago

Why this is even on the front page? Someone who doesn't have patience decides that selling apps for money is not for them. Fine. Entrepreneurship requires a lot of hard work and patience. You need to be resourceful.[1] Big news. 1: http://www.paulgraham.com/relres.html http://www.paulgraham.com/relres.html

ruswick 14y ago
Evidently, people tend to congregate around posts that bash Apple or decry some flaw with the system around which many people spend their time and money. It doesn't need to be substantive or revelatory to be on front page; it just needs to be sensational and attractive. It should be no surprise considering the shit that passes for "news" on most blogs and lesser publications.
CamperBob2 14y ago
Yeah, I can hardly wait until he applies for a GSA contract...
PGenes 14y ago
The real mystery is why are there so many Apple fan boys in this thread? The company's walled garden approach absolutely sucks. And there's nothing fashionable about saying so.

lessnonymous 14y ago

I don't see what problem you're solving by open sourcing, therefore this is just a misguided publicity grab. * The "open letter" goes from addressing Apple to addressing potential developers. * What does open-sourcing give you other than people to help you write code for free? You still can't put the app on the app store and therefore can't release it to users. You can get it on third-party app stores instantly already. I don't see what problem you're solving by open sourcing, therefore this is just a misguided publicity grab. If this hiccup is going to stop you creating new things, you're not going to get far.

eduardordm 14y ago
The problem itself (taking too long to publish the app because of duns number requirement) can't be solved without waiting (or money), really. I'm not really solving any problem by open sourcing it, but as I give up developing for the app store my idea is to open source it, build a small group of developers, find someone smarter than me to work with. I don't think selling apps on the app store is a viable source on income for small developers right now. Yes, we hear a lot of success cases, but the number of failures are enormous. I created! I'm just giving up selling it.
- terrywilcox 14y ago
  It's best that you give up now. The app submission and approval process also requires patience. As do all the stupid users with their stupid questions and stupid one star reviews because they don't understand how it works. And the paperwork around income statements, balance sheets, depreciation, and taxes is horrible. Business licenses, legal documents, blah blah blah. Like I said, it's best that you quit before you even get to the really frustrating stuff.

stefan_kendall 14y ago

It's fraud. http://www.stefankendall.com/2013/01/duns-secret-startup-cost-of-ios.html http://www.stefankendall.com/2013/01/duns-secret-startup-cos... The press department has been contacting me, but I refuse their calls. DUNS needs to DIE.

nanijoe 14y ago

To be honest, it seems these days like Apple is trying their best to reduce the number of [small] developers that publish to the App Store. I have been selling on the app store for close to 3 years, and in the last 6 months, pretty much every thing that somewhat levels the playing field has been taken away by Apple. The new releases list used to be every apps's chance to be visible for at least 24 - 48 hrs, and if enough people bought your app, it made its way to the top in category list, which in turn gave it visibility as long as people kept buying your app. Apple has removed the new releases list, and have made it very difficult for people to find the top in category lists. The only prominent lists now, are the hand picked apps in the featured category. I find it hard to believe that all this is not intentional. My advise to anyone seeking to develop mobile apps right now? Think it through before you jump in.

bennyg 14y ago
Fuck this mentality. What do we, as a collective community, say to the companies that can't mutate their business models because a player in the field has changed things up (for better or worse)? We tell them to change or die. Why is this any different? So what you can't depend on a "New Release" list anymore - do something else to get attention. That's basically a fundamental part of our creed, as hackers and as creators.
- djt 14y ago
  iOS is fundamentally a business, it's within their rights to do as they please. It makes sense to make the most profit and that probably means moving from small iDev businesses to large ones (ie SEGA etc) that are happy to spend a lot of money pushing their apps. I agree with you though and I think the hackers will move elsewhere. Im excited to see if people move across to android etc for exactly this reason. iOS will taper off eventually but Apple will milk every cent before that happens.
  - flyinRyan 14y ago
    Why would a developer move to Android? Even today it's harder to get sales on Android. I would expect devs to move to the web or possibly make a bet on one of the other platforms.

tubbo 14y ago

<3 we love you eduardo and are eagerly awaiting your pull requests - DIASPORA

Foomandoonian 14y ago

I'm always sad when people treat open source as a dumping ground for abandoned/old/unprofitable projects. The rest of my sympathy went away when he misspelled 'substantial' and signed off with an all-caps 'GO TO HELL'. Classy. I'm probably just a snob.

Gigablah 14y ago
You probably just lack empathy.
eduardordm 14y ago
You are not a snob. But, make no mistake, this is probably a profitable project. In fact, I was planning on making a living out it! I promise I'm not just dumping this I misspell a lot, sorry, english is not my first language (not even second, actually). Normally I use a spell checker, somehow that passed. Yep, the e-mail didn't end very well. My point was to try to convey rage to the reader (crazy guy punching computer). Just like people yelling at airline employees when something happens to their flights.
- sbuk 14y ago
  In my opinion, your rage is misplaced and make you look as though you haven't thought things through at all. Do you really think it is just a case that writing an app will instantly lead to $$$?

joey_muller 14y ago

Your app looks very cool. Best of luck to you.

niggler 14y ago

I remember Remy Sharp complaining about apple taking too long, resulting in https://github.com/remy/jsconsole-iphone https://github.com/remy/jsconsole-iphone

ricardobeat 14y ago

Apparently there are faster/easier ways to obtain a DUNS number: http://blog.metamorphium.com/2012/12/03/apple-duns/ http://blog.metamorphium.com/2012/12/03/apple-duns/ http://dominikbalogh.com/post/20605187847/how-to-quickly-obtain-d-u-n-s-number-for-ios-enterprise http://dominikbalogh.com/post/20605187847/how-to-quickly-obt... Though, individual accounts don't require one - why did you need an enterprise account for a standard app (no enterprise installs)?

eduardordm 14y ago
DUNS number is now a requirement for all companies, not just enterprise deploys. Methods above won't work on Brazil, you need to actually call them to request the number. (They send you a .xls to fill out).
- ricardobeat 14y ago
  The question was why you'd need a company account instead of an individual one - I see you have already answered that elsewhere. The second link (.de) seems to offer registration for Brazil, though I haven't done that myself.

visualR 14y ago

So now HN is upvoting whiners and quitters?

sbuk 14y ago
And clearly downloading anyone that disagrees.

interpol_p 14y ago

As mentioned by eblade — could you have simply used this to get a DUNS number? https://developer.apple.com/ios/enroll/dunsLookupForm.action https://developer.apple.com/ios/enroll/dunsLookupForm.action

ndesaulniers 14y ago

Please, put your creative talent to good use on the web. Break free of the walled gardens that snarl and entrap you!

cmccabe 14y ago

Don't release it under the GPL. Due to Apple app store restrictions, GPL'ed apps cannot be distributed that way. It's probably best to pick a BSD or Apache style license. Being an app developer is frustrating even on Android. Getting publicity for your app is difficult. Margins are thinner than you think because prices are low and your time isn't free. My feeling is that the market is currently oversupplied with app developers and it needs to cool down. More posts like this would be good to counter the gold rush mentality of the past few years. There just isn't that much money in apps, unless you own the App store. I also don't see learning Objective C as being that useful, unless you want to continue being an iOS developer... which it seems that you don't. Remember, your main career goal as a developer is not to paint yourself into a corner.

eduo 14y ago
Wrongo. Him being the sole owner of the property can simply release the code under the GPL and use Apple's license for the Store's binaries. There are no GPL'ed apps. There is GPL'ed code. Owners of the code can decide to do multiple licenses depending on what they want to do with it. If I make an app I can make it GPL and then keep on developing it myself and after a ton of changes release a proprietary app and then another ton of changes and that third version of the code make it GPL as well and at the same time put the binary up on a place like the App Store and at the same time put the code somewhere else with a BSD license and then again somewhere else post it as public domain. It'd be a silly thing to do, but as the owner of the property its your prerogative what you do with it. This silliness about the GPL and the Store needs to stop. It's misinformation all-round. A different thing is that you can't take someone's GPL code and build an App Store app with it (unless you get permission and a special license from all owners of the copyright). As for Objective-C it works for other platforms and if he actually prefers just Cocoa he still has OS X as a potential platform (plus whatever Apple decides to incorporate in the future, if they ever expand). Your main career goal as a developer should be making a living developing and, ideally, make boatloads of cash. Painting yourself into a corner may, if anything, be bad strategy; but only if it hinders that objective. Posts like these are not good because they're misinformed and spread misinformation. They transfer blame so they do nothing to assuage the actual problems: 1.-People who plan on making a living developing should have a backup plan. It may not be as easy as they think. 2.-People who plan on making a living developing and are smart about having a backup plan should first "test the waters" before they go full-blown corporate. Develop and release some apps as an individual. See how they behave. Especially if they're your first apps after learning the language and the platform. 3.-Setting up companies is hard and tests everyone's patience. This needs to be ACCEPTED. No matter what your rush, the bureaucracy walks at its own glacial pace. Better understand it early. Also: Frustration shouldn't equal anger. 4.-Document yourself. DUNS is an industry-standard. It's a horrible one and they are scammy and artifically bureaucratic (so they can sell you the shortcuts) but the requirement it's been there for a while and there's plenty of information on how to make it less painful. 5.-Learn where to put blame and focus your frustration. Ask around and find shortcuts and workarounds. DUNS is not Apple and while Apple's requirement of DUNS is frustrating it has its reasons. If selling in the store makes sense to you financially then wait out the free registration from DUNS or decide to pay to get it faster. If patience is not your virtue you might not be shaped to be an entrepeneur anyway, so Eduardodm should thank DUNS from helping him get out early, as this is nothing compared to what was yet to come.

farabove 14y ago

Lame, You are mostly doing something wrong. When I needed a DUNS here in Norway it took me less then 48 hours at no cost, I just went to this site http://fedgov.dnb.com/webform http://fedgov.dnb.com/webform

zbruhnke 14y ago

I wrote a blog post about how to get around this here: http://www.zachbruhnke.com/how-to-get-a-duns-number-for-free-today http://www.zachbruhnke.com/how-to-get-a-duns-number-for-free... its currently somewhere on the New page, upvote it if its useful

pretoriusB 14y ago

>I give up making software for you app store. Your DUNS number requirement was the last straw. I’ve been waiting 2 months for this number and was told I need to wait another month (60 working days total) unless I pay a substancial amount of money. So, please, GO TO HELL. And yet tons of other developers and companies seem to do just fine in the App Store, without juvenile crap like this. A rant like this coming from people that have been seriously screw by Apple, I would understand. But you don't even have the app made yet by your own admission. You have a half-finished app, that "you learned Objective-C while building it". And somehow it's the DUNS that slows down your path to world domination and profit? Why do you need a DUNS in the first place? An individual doesn't need one, and a company knows better than to blame another company for something a THIRD company handles and that even the government makes a requirement to do business with you.