3 ms·

Agreed 100%, your reasoning is sound. I think this is a fair assessment of the situation, and that if more people could hold this opinion, more reform against t

by tcuk 14y ago

Agreed 100%, your reasoning is sound. I think this is a fair assessment of the situation, and that if more people could hold this opinion, more reform against the laws that so many disagree with would actually happen.

politician 14y ago
Should you always plead guilty to crimes the Government accuses you of?
- tcuk 14y ago
  I think the answer is obviously 'no'. But I also believe that your question is exactly what is bad about the situation. It is a total red herring to the issue at hand. Let me expand: He should have pleaded guilty to the crimes, because it is in my opinion, that he did infact break current laws, and that 6 months + felony, is not life ending sentence, far from it. Consider this: I also believe the laws in which he broke shouldn't exist in the capacity as they do. You can hold both the above beliefs, and when you do, it gives you power to make reform in an appropriate capacity.
  - politician 14y ago
    When you say "because it is in my opinion that in fact X," what you've said is simply that "in your opinion X". I point that out because Aaron apparently had a different opinion that led him to make a different choice. I find it strange that posing a question which you and Aaron answer differently in order to probe your rational is "a total red herring". I respect that you don't believe these laws are just. One such power that helps society push back against such laws is jury nullification - the right to for a jury to say "not guilty" regardless of what the law claims.
    - anigbrowl 14y ago
      It doesn't matter what aaronsw's opinion was; it's still illegal to break intoa w riing closet and attach our computer to someone else's network without permission. If you found someone doing that in a typical workplace, you'd call the cops too. I think my local library should be open 24/7 but that doesn't give me the right to remove the door by the hinges.
    - tcuk 14y ago
      politician, with respect I think you need to be more concise with your questions, I would hope Aaron would also say 'no' to the vague: 'Should you always plead guilty to crimes the Government accuses you of?' Did you perhaps mean to ask: 'Should you always plead guilty to crimes the Government accuses you of, even when you believe you are right?' Which is still a red herring because it doesn't address the issue: Did Aaron truly believe he broke no current laws, or did he believe so strongly the laws were bullshit, so he shouldn't be prosecuted at all? (which means he still actually broke them)
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      - BrokenPipe 14y ago
        trespassing maybe. Not any serious bulling plus 13 counts. Are you not the troll from early today ? How many accounts is that ?
- oinksoft 14y ago
  No, but suicide is not the only alternative (you could try to flee the country or otherwise go into hiding). It is just horrible that somebody already battling with depression for so long got caught up in the twisted game that is the prosecution of federal crimes. Good read, related to the cat-and-mouse game: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/14/jailhouse-informants-for-sale/1762013/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/14/jailhou...
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  No, but if there's prima facie evidence of criminal activity (such as the surveillance video, being caught red-handed with the laptop), then maybe you should consider it. Effectively the government was asking him to face up to the fact that whatever his views about the ethics of JSTOR were, the way he acted upon them (breaking into a wiring closet etc.) was illegal. It's not like anybody contests the facts of what he did.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    It seems to me that there is a fine difference between admitting you did the act, and admitting you did the act and conceding the act indeed violated the laws the prosecutors assert. For example, presumably Aaron's lawyers would argue that while Aaron did in fact use a fake name on a captive portal, but that doing so was not wire fraud. Why should you abstain from arguing if your actions violated the law just because they have hard proof that you did in fact perform those actions?
    - anigbrowl 14y ago
      This is the definition of wire fraud: (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1343 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1343) Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. JSTOR was in a different state. Swartz caused signals to be transmitted by wire for the purpose of an artifice to defraud. The indictment is specific and cites to statutory definitions of what constitutes criminal behavior. As I've said over and over again in relation to copyright issues, maybe things like copyright infringement should not be considered crimes at all, but right now, they are. If the elements of a crime are defined as X, Y, and Z, and there's proof that someone engaged in X, Y, and Z, then that person has committed the crime n question. Now if you want to argue that the law in question is unconstitutional for some reason, that's fine, but that's something you do at appeal. the purpose of a trial Court is simply to establish whether a certain set of facts is true or not.

by tcuk 14y ago

politician 14y ago

Should you always plead guilty to crimes the Government accuses you of?

tcuk 14y ago
I think the answer is obviously 'no'. But I also believe that your question is exactly what is bad about the situation. It is a total red herring to the issue at hand. Let me expand: He should have pleaded guilty to the crimes, because it is in my opinion, that he did infact break current laws, and that 6 months + felony, is not life ending sentence, far from it. Consider this: I also believe the laws in which he broke shouldn't exist in the capacity as they do. You can hold both the above beliefs, and when you do, it gives you power to make reform in an appropriate capacity.
- politician 14y ago
  When you say "because it is in my opinion that in fact X," what you've said is simply that "in your opinion X". I point that out because Aaron apparently had a different opinion that led him to make a different choice. I find it strange that posing a question which you and Aaron answer differently in order to probe your rational is "a total red herring". I respect that you don't believe these laws are just. One such power that helps society push back against such laws is jury nullification - the right to for a jury to say "not guilty" regardless of what the law claims.
  - anigbrowl 14y ago
    It doesn't matter what aaronsw's opinion was; it's still illegal to break intoa w riing closet and attach our computer to someone else's network without permission. If you found someone doing that in a typical workplace, you'd call the cops too. I think my local library should be open 24/7 but that doesn't give me the right to remove the door by the hinges.
  - tcuk 14y ago
    politician, with respect I think you need to be more concise with your questions, I would hope Aaron would also say 'no' to the vague: 'Should you always plead guilty to crimes the Government accuses you of?' Did you perhaps mean to ask: 'Should you always plead guilty to crimes the Government accuses you of, even when you believe you are right?' Which is still a red herring because it doesn't address the issue: Did Aaron truly believe he broke no current laws, or did he believe so strongly the laws were bullshit, so he shouldn't be prosecuted at all? (which means he still actually broke them)
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - BrokenPipe 14y ago
      trespassing maybe. Not any serious bulling plus 13 counts. Are you not the troll from early today ? How many accounts is that ?
oinksoft 14y ago
No, but suicide is not the only alternative (you could try to flee the country or otherwise go into hiding). It is just horrible that somebody already battling with depression for so long got caught up in the twisted game that is the prosecution of federal crimes. Good read, related to the cat-and-mouse game: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/14/jailhouse-informants-for-sale/1762013/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/14/jailhou...
anigbrowl 14y ago
No, but if there's prima facie evidence of criminal activity (such as the surveillance video, being caught red-handed with the laptop), then maybe you should consider it. Effectively the government was asking him to face up to the fact that whatever his views about the ethics of JSTOR were, the way he acted upon them (breaking into a wiring closet etc.) was illegal. It's not like anybody contests the facts of what he did.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  It seems to me that there is a fine difference between admitting you did the act, and admitting you did the act and conceding the act indeed violated the laws the prosecutors assert. For example, presumably Aaron's lawyers would argue that while Aaron did in fact use a fake name on a captive portal, but that doing so was not wire fraud. Why should you abstain from arguing if your actions violated the law just because they have hard proof that you did in fact perform those actions?
  - anigbrowl 14y ago
    This is the definition of wire fraud: (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1343 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1343) Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. JSTOR was in a different state. Swartz caused signals to be transmitted by wire for the purpose of an artifice to defraud. The indictment is specific and cites to statutory definitions of what constitutes criminal behavior. As I've said over and over again in relation to copyright issues, maybe things like copyright infringement should not be considered crimes at all, but right now, they are. If the elements of a crime are defined as X, Y, and Z, and there's proof that someone engaged in X, Y, and Z, then that person has committed the crime n question. Now if you want to argue that the law in question is unconstitutional for some reason, that's fine, but that's something you do at appeal. the purpose of a trial Court is simply to establish whether a certain set of facts is true or not.