4 ms·

Going from being rich to poor (due to legal costs), facing years in prison, and becoming a convicted felon for life? For running what amounted to "wget -r http:

by staunch 14y ago

Going from being rich to poor (due to legal costs), facing years in prison, and becoming a convicted felon for life? For running what amounted to "wget -r http://jstor.mit.edu/ http://jstor.mit.edu/ " to download publicly funded academic papers? I think even someone who had never suffered from depression might contemplate suicide. His father's words may be a little too strong, but they're not entirely off-base either.

sethist 14y ago
His father's words may be a little too strong, but they're not entirely off-base either. Yes, they are off base. He deserves leeway due to the untold grief he is enduring, but a statement like that is ridiculous. Thousands of people a day go to jail a day, many of them for breaking unjust laws, and very few of them kill themselves. He was killed by depression/mental illness not by the government. The charges likely exasperated his condition, but without that underlining fragile mental state, he would almost assuredly still be alive today.
- politician 14y ago
  a: In a drive-by shooting, the driver is often charged along with the shooter; even when the driver insists that he didn't know what was going to happen. b: The defense attorney claimed that he made Stephen Heymann aware of the suicide risk early in the case. If Heymann was aware of the risk and pushed ahead anyway, is he a contributor in the same sense that the driver of the car is a contributor? Why or why not?
  - mc32 14y ago
    Are you saying one should not sue, or at least weigh heavily, people's mental state prior to launching a lawsuit? Is that current procedure, run mental evaluations before suing? Lots of people have mental breakdowns before and during trials. The trials proceed so long as people are 'mentally competent' to stand trial. If something like this were allowed, people would pretty much abuse the system and claim mental anguish, etc. to avoid facing a trial.
    - politician 14y ago
      Aren't you aware that we already do take into account the mental states of defendants - the mentally challenged, the insane?
      - mc32 14y ago
        In extreme cases, yes. People are put on suicide watches, but the trials proceed. The bar for being considered 'insane' and 'mentally unfit' is very high. You have people who would colloquially be considered 'crazy' go to trial, represent themselves, etc.
        politician 14y ago
        But that did not happen here, did it? Does that make Heymann a contributor?
        mc32 14y ago
        I don't think so. It's a really tenous connection. It's like saying me getting on the freeway contributed to an accident which happens 10 minutes behind me. Sure, maybe if I had not gotten on the freeway that would have caused a different pattern of traffic on the freeway so that the accident would not have happened, but in no way would I be a direct contributor.
        politician 14y ago
        Would you change your mind if you were warned that by getting on the freeway there stood a serious above average risk of causing a accident?
      - sethist 14y ago
        In those cases isn't it due to the fact that the defendant is unable to mentally process their crime, trial, or potential punishment?
  - sethist 14y ago
    Regarding your second point, are you suggesting the legal system should go easy on criminals who may be suicidal? I just think it is foolish to start blaming every entity that could have contributed to his mental state. Hypothetically speaking, if he had recently broken up with someone or was fired from a job would we claim that they killed him? No, they would simply be catalysts that might have contributed to his ultimate decision.
Adam503 14y ago
You forgot Swartz being threatened with months of non-stop prison rape.
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  [citation needed]
tvladeck 14y ago
He never had to go from being rich to poor or face years in prison if he had just plead guilty to the crime that he plainly committed. The choices and the risk that he faced were entirely of his own volition. It's very sad, but it's not the government's fault.

by staunch 14y ago

sethist 14y ago

His father's words may be a little too strong, but they're not entirely off-base either. Yes, they are off base. He deserves leeway due to the untold grief he is enduring, but a statement like that is ridiculous. Thousands of people a day go to jail a day, many of them for breaking unjust laws, and very few of them kill themselves. He was killed by depression/mental illness not by the government. The charges likely exasperated his condition, but without that underlining fragile mental state, he would almost assuredly still be alive today.

politician 14y ago
a: In a drive-by shooting, the driver is often charged along with the shooter; even when the driver insists that he didn't know what was going to happen. b: The defense attorney claimed that he made Stephen Heymann aware of the suicide risk early in the case. If Heymann was aware of the risk and pushed ahead anyway, is he a contributor in the same sense that the driver of the car is a contributor? Why or why not?
- mc32 14y ago
  Are you saying one should not sue, or at least weigh heavily, people's mental state prior to launching a lawsuit? Is that current procedure, run mental evaluations before suing? Lots of people have mental breakdowns before and during trials. The trials proceed so long as people are 'mentally competent' to stand trial. If something like this were allowed, people would pretty much abuse the system and claim mental anguish, etc. to avoid facing a trial.
  - politician 14y ago
    Aren't you aware that we already do take into account the mental states of defendants - the mentally challenged, the insane?
    - mc32 14y ago
      In extreme cases, yes. People are put on suicide watches, but the trials proceed. The bar for being considered 'insane' and 'mentally unfit' is very high. You have people who would colloquially be considered 'crazy' go to trial, represent themselves, etc.
      - politician 14y ago
        But that did not happen here, did it? Does that make Heymann a contributor?
        mc32 14y ago
        I don't think so. It's a really tenous connection. It's like saying me getting on the freeway contributed to an accident which happens 10 minutes behind me. Sure, maybe if I had not gotten on the freeway that would have caused a different pattern of traffic on the freeway so that the accident would not have happened, but in no way would I be a direct contributor.
        politician 14y ago
        Would you change your mind if you were warned that by getting on the freeway there stood a serious above average risk of causing a accident?
    - sethist 14y ago
      In those cases isn't it due to the fact that the defendant is unable to mentally process their crime, trial, or potential punishment?
- sethist 14y ago
  Regarding your second point, are you suggesting the legal system should go easy on criminals who may be suicidal? I just think it is foolish to start blaming every entity that could have contributed to his mental state. Hypothetically speaking, if he had recently broken up with someone or was fired from a job would we claim that they killed him? No, they would simply be catalysts that might have contributed to his ultimate decision.

Adam503 14y ago

You forgot Swartz being threatened with months of non-stop prison rape.

anigbrowl 14y ago
[citation needed]

tvladeck 14y ago

He never had to go from being rich to poor or face years in prison if he had just plead guilty to the crime that he plainly committed. The choices and the risk that he faced were entirely of his own volition. It's very sad, but it's not the government's fault.