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Knowing several people who disbelieve evolution or climate change, I think this is not really true and the wrong attitude to take. People that want to teach cre

Knowing several people who disbelieve evolution or climate change, I think this is not really true and the wrong attitude to take. People that want to teach creation along with evolution in the classroom truly think that evolution is a weakly supported hypothesis that does not fit the scientific evidence. Not just because they believe it contradicts their religion, but because they believe it's physically, literally wrong and is scientifically falsifiable. There is a minority of disbelievers that want biblical literalism taught in the classroom, but I think most truly believe that evolution is probably untrue, and at best, unproven, and simply want what they feel is the evidence taught in the classroom, instead of one unsupported or weak theory taught with cherry-picked evidence. Yes, that's really what they think. Obviously they are wrong, but I think if most of the evolution-deniers truly understood the modern theory of evolution, and understood that it is separate from abiogenesis, I think they wouldn't have a problem with it.

MichaelGG 14y ago
Having grown up going to anti-science schools, it's because they simply don't understand the basic idea of evolution. They literally think it's "one day a fish just started walking on land" or "an eye just randomly appeared", which _is_ nonsense. Understanding evolution requires understanding some of the subtleties, a bit of game theory, speciation, and so on. They need to understand that while mutations are random, survival on average is not. Without that understanding, it comes down to "so we just evolved from monkeys? My grandma isn't a monkey!", which is rightfully a stupid idea to believe in. So given their lack of knowledge of what evolution is, they have a perfectly logical stance.
jakeonthemove 14y ago
Believing something does not make it true... And hey, if the world was created 6000 years ago by some omnipotent being and made to look like it's several billion years old for some reason, I'm cool with that, but showing me a book written by humans as proof is just goddamn stupid.
- nthj 14y ago
  I'd consider myself a creationist, but I never understood why so many creationists argue for a 10,000 year old earth. If you'll permit me quoting the Bible, here, to explain my point: there is every logical possibility of 60 billion years occurring between $WHEN_TIME_STARTED and $BIBLICAL_FIRST_DAY_WHICH_MUST_BE_NO_MORE_THAN_10_000_YEARS_AGO. > In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. <hypothesis: stars are created here. some 60 odd billion years go here, giving plenty of time for starlight to reach the earth> > 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. [Also, not really interested in getting into discussions of which scenario is more likely or whether I'm a fracking idiot. I just wanted to point out that I find it an intellectual curiosity that many creationists get so hung up on the young earth thing, since I'm not convinced that a 60 billion year old earth & biblical literalism are mutually exclusive.]
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    If you accept an old earth (and I assume a similarly accurate timescale for how long life has been around), how would you expect life not to evolve? Given that much time, it's really just inevitable. How could it possibly not happen? If you're a catholic-style "theistic evolution" type, then I suppose that is another thing. I'm mostly just curious how you stretch a non-evolution creation/development of life out over more than a couple thousand years. Catholics do it by just calling evolution "divinely guided" or whatever. Of the origin thoughts that involve deities, "young earth/no evolution" and "old earth/theistic evolution" seem the most logical to me.
    - MartinCron 14y ago
      That touches on one of the biggest conceptual problems holding people back from understanding evolution. The timescale is big. Really big. Bigger than human brains are typically capable of handling. I sometimes think that teaching shared ancestry as a starting point is the wrong approach, and that we should focus instead of the science of how old the universe must be (based on things like astronomy and earth science) and how iterative adaptive systems reflect changes over billions of years. From there, people can arrive at common ancestry all on their own.
guard-of-terra 14y ago
Do people that want to teach creation think creation is better supported hypothesis than evolution? Nice try.
- rthomas6 14y ago
  In my experience they don't think it through that far. Creation's not really a theory. The theory is just "Something intelligent created it." How? "Not evolution." Most of the time and energy is spent trying to say how evolution couldn't happen.
baddox 14y ago
What portion of these creationists are Young Earth creationists? Young Earth creationists would have a problem with the modern theory of evolution because it actually is impossible for modern biodiversity to have evolved in 6,000 to 10,000 years.
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  They also have problems with geology, astronomy, chemistry and physics. It's just nobody told them yet and they're too clueless to figure it out.
  - baddox 14y ago
    Trust me, they're well aware of their problems with most or all branches of science.
MartinCron 14y ago
People that want to teach creation along with evolution in the classroom truly think that evolution is a weakly supported hypothesis that does not fit the scientific evidence I think you're giving way too much credit to science deniers. There's no amount of physical evidence that can fairly compete with the argument of "well, the creator of the universe wrote this book and it has to be correct"
- rthomas6 14y ago
  I'm not talking about the people that choose to deny evolution solely because of some literal interpretation of the Bible. I'm talking about the ones that were raised by people like that, and have been incorrectly told how weak the evidence for evolution is. There is a LOT of money behind teaching people this, and teaching that scientists lie to push some agenda or another. A lot of the same people don't believe in climate change for the same reason, that is, they don't think it's supported well enough by evidence. I think that makes this subset of evolution-deniers skeptics at heart (At least for some things). Beginning from first principles, I think skepticism is a great attitude with which to teach science. I think a lot of these people could be taught, given willingness to learn, and an absence of mistrust of science in general, which a lot of them have been unfortunately taught.
  - MartinCron 14y ago
    I just don't think that's a worldview that anyone arrives at in an intellectually honest way. I'm reminded of the great example of gaps in the fossil record. If you find a fossil that's in the middle of the two end points of the gap you make things worse, because now you have TWO gaps in the fossil record. Ranting aside, I have no idea how to deal with this phenomenon in a constructive way.
darkarmani 14y ago
> People that want to teach creation along with evolution in the classroom truly think that evolution is a weakly supported hypothesis that does not fit the scientific evidence. That would make sense if they didn't want to replace it with creation. This is a good opportunity for them to learn how science works. It doesn't even matter if evolution is wrong -- that doesn't make creationism right.
jlgreco 14y ago
> People that want to teach creation along with evolution in the classroom truly think that evolution is a weakly supported hypothesis... That's fine and all, but why are these people getting jobs as science teachers where they will have to teach this theory that they believe so wrong? Even if they have the book knowledge down pat (Which honestly I doubt. Not believing in evolution if you've been fed distortions and lies your whole life is one thing, but not believing it if you actually have an accurate mental model of it is an entirely different animal...), how could they possibly be good teachers? Unless they are also great actors, I don't see how they could possibly impart that same essential enthusiasm for science that good science teachers do.
- rthomas6 14y ago
  This is a good point. I'm sure many of them are not good science teachers. Especially if they are a biology teacher.
oz 14y ago
>but I think if most of the evolution-deniers truly understood the modern theory of evolution, and understood that it is separate from abiogenesis, I think they wouldn't have a problem with it. I am the son of a fundamentalist minister. For a time, I was also a Christian. I'm now an atheist. Take it from me: you're wrong. I've been there. There is literally nothing you can say to them. Their belief system is invested in it not being true. It's like the quote attributed to Upton Sinclair: 'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.' I once stood in my doorway and pitied Einstein et. al, smugly thinking that for all their "human wisdom", they weren't able to grasp these "universal truths of God as made manifest through creation." Me, who dropped high school physics. So you see, there's another element to the denial. It allows less intelligent people to think they have something over "these intellectuals."
- rthomas6 14y ago
  I believe you. Maybe I am wrong for the majority, then. But I arrived at my viewpoint because I used to be someone who disbelieved in evolution. Or rather, I believed in "microevolution" in individual species, which I later discovered in college to simply be evolution over a few hundred thousand years instead of a few hundred million. I believed this because it's what my parents taught me, and it's what I read in books (that they gave me). I haven't given up on my parents yet... I don't like to talk with them about evolution, but I do like to talk about science, and I still think if they truly understood a scientifically accurate model of the universe as we currently understand it, they would accept evolution, and the ~13 billion year age of the universe. I am still a Christian, but I now understand and accept the scientific method as the best way to understand the physical world. I simply choose to also believe that there are unprovable and unfalsifiable things that exist beyond the physical realm.

MichaelGG 14y ago

Having grown up going to anti-science schools, it's because they simply don't understand the basic idea of evolution. They literally think it's "one day a fish just started walking on land" or "an eye just randomly appeared", which _is_ nonsense. Understanding evolution requires understanding some of the subtleties, a bit of game theory, speciation, and so on. They need to understand that while mutations are random, survival on average is not. Without that understanding, it comes down to "so we just evolved from monkeys? My grandma isn't a monkey!", which is rightfully a stupid idea to believe in. So given their lack of knowledge of what evolution is, they have a perfectly logical stance.

jakeonthemove 14y ago

Believing something does not make it true... And hey, if the world was created 6000 years ago by some omnipotent being and made to look like it's several billion years old for some reason, I'm cool with that, but showing me a book written by humans as proof is just goddamn stupid.

nthj 14y ago
I'd consider myself a creationist, but I never understood why so many creationists argue for a 10,000 year old earth. If you'll permit me quoting the Bible, here, to explain my point: there is every logical possibility of 60 billion years occurring between $WHEN_TIME_STARTED and $BIBLICAL_FIRST_DAY_WHICH_MUST_BE_NO_MORE_THAN_10_000_YEARS_AGO. > In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. <hypothesis: stars are created here. some 60 odd billion years go here, giving plenty of time for starlight to reach the earth> > 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. [Also, not really interested in getting into discussions of which scenario is more likely or whether I'm a fracking idiot. I just wanted to point out that I find it an intellectual curiosity that many creationists get so hung up on the young earth thing, since I'm not convinced that a 60 billion year old earth & biblical literalism are mutually exclusive.]
- jlgreco 14y ago
  If you accept an old earth (and I assume a similarly accurate timescale for how long life has been around), how would you expect life not to evolve? Given that much time, it's really just inevitable. How could it possibly not happen? If you're a catholic-style "theistic evolution" type, then I suppose that is another thing. I'm mostly just curious how you stretch a non-evolution creation/development of life out over more than a couple thousand years. Catholics do it by just calling evolution "divinely guided" or whatever. Of the origin thoughts that involve deities, "young earth/no evolution" and "old earth/theistic evolution" seem the most logical to me.
  - MartinCron 14y ago
    That touches on one of the biggest conceptual problems holding people back from understanding evolution. The timescale is big. Really big. Bigger than human brains are typically capable of handling. I sometimes think that teaching shared ancestry as a starting point is the wrong approach, and that we should focus instead of the science of how old the universe must be (based on things like astronomy and earth science) and how iterative adaptive systems reflect changes over billions of years. From there, people can arrive at common ancestry all on their own.

guard-of-terra 14y ago

Do people that want to teach creation think creation is better supported hypothesis than evolution? Nice try.

rthomas6 14y ago
In my experience they don't think it through that far. Creation's not really a theory. The theory is just "Something intelligent created it." How? "Not evolution." Most of the time and energy is spent trying to say how evolution couldn't happen.

baddox 14y ago

What portion of these creationists are Young Earth creationists? Young Earth creationists would have a problem with the modern theory of evolution because it actually is impossible for modern biodiversity to have evolved in 6,000 to 10,000 years.

guard-of-terra 14y ago
They also have problems with geology, astronomy, chemistry and physics. It's just nobody told them yet and they're too clueless to figure it out.
- baddox 14y ago
  Trust me, they're well aware of their problems with most or all branches of science.

MartinCron 14y ago

People that want to teach creation along with evolution in the classroom truly think that evolution is a weakly supported hypothesis that does not fit the scientific evidence I think you're giving way too much credit to science deniers. There's no amount of physical evidence that can fairly compete with the argument of "well, the creator of the universe wrote this book and it has to be correct"

rthomas6 14y ago
I'm not talking about the people that choose to deny evolution solely because of some literal interpretation of the Bible. I'm talking about the ones that were raised by people like that, and have been incorrectly told how weak the evidence for evolution is. There is a LOT of money behind teaching people this, and teaching that scientists lie to push some agenda or another. A lot of the same people don't believe in climate change for the same reason, that is, they don't think it's supported well enough by evidence. I think that makes this subset of evolution-deniers skeptics at heart (At least for some things). Beginning from first principles, I think skepticism is a great attitude with which to teach science. I think a lot of these people could be taught, given willingness to learn, and an absence of mistrust of science in general, which a lot of them have been unfortunately taught.
- MartinCron 14y ago
  I just don't think that's a worldview that anyone arrives at in an intellectually honest way. I'm reminded of the great example of gaps in the fossil record. If you find a fossil that's in the middle of the two end points of the gap you make things worse, because now you have TWO gaps in the fossil record. Ranting aside, I have no idea how to deal with this phenomenon in a constructive way.

darkarmani 14y ago

> People that want to teach creation along with evolution in the classroom truly think that evolution is a weakly supported hypothesis that does not fit the scientific evidence. That would make sense if they didn't want to replace it with creation. This is a good opportunity for them to learn how science works. It doesn't even matter if evolution is wrong -- that doesn't make creationism right.

jlgreco 14y ago

> People that want to teach creation along with evolution in the classroom truly think that evolution is a weakly supported hypothesis... That's fine and all, but why are these people getting jobs as science teachers where they will have to teach this theory that they believe so wrong? Even if they have the book knowledge down pat (Which honestly I doubt. Not believing in evolution if you've been fed distortions and lies your whole life is one thing, but not believing it if you actually have an accurate mental model of it is an entirely different animal...), how could they possibly be good teachers? Unless they are also great actors, I don't see how they could possibly impart that same essential enthusiasm for science that good science teachers do.

rthomas6 14y ago
This is a good point. I'm sure many of them are not good science teachers. Especially if they are a biology teacher.

oz 14y ago

>but I think if most of the evolution-deniers truly understood the modern theory of evolution, and understood that it is separate from abiogenesis, I think they wouldn't have a problem with it. I am the son of a fundamentalist minister. For a time, I was also a Christian. I'm now an atheist. Take it from me: you're wrong. I've been there. There is literally nothing you can say to them. Their belief system is invested in it not being true. It's like the quote attributed to Upton Sinclair: 'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.' I once stood in my doorway and pitied Einstein et. al, smugly thinking that for all their "human wisdom", they weren't able to grasp these "universal truths of God as made manifest through creation." Me, who dropped high school physics. So you see, there's another element to the denial. It allows less intelligent people to think they have something over "these intellectuals."

rthomas6 14y ago
I believe you. Maybe I am wrong for the majority, then. But I arrived at my viewpoint because I used to be someone who disbelieved in evolution. Or rather, I believed in "microevolution" in individual species, which I later discovered in college to simply be evolution over a few hundred thousand years instead of a few hundred million. I believed this because it's what my parents taught me, and it's what I read in books (that they gave me). I haven't given up on my parents yet... I don't like to talk with them about evolution, but I do like to talk about science, and I still think if they truly understood a scientifically accurate model of the universe as we currently understand it, they would accept evolution, and the ~13 billion year age of the universe. I am still a Christian, but I now understand and accept the scientific method as the best way to understand the physical world. I simply choose to also believe that there are unprovable and unfalsifiable things that exist beyond the physical realm.