9 ms·

The people for whom I have empathy are his parents, family, and friends who, by committing the ultimate act of self-centeredness, he has now forced to live the

by crikli 14y ago

The people for whom I have empathy are his parents, family, and friends who, by committing the ultimate act of self-centeredness, he has now forced to live the rest of their lives bearing a burden of sorrow and survivor's guilt.

vy8vWJlco 14y ago
In other words: "Stop crying, dammit, you're making everyone else feel bad." Suicide is a private whimper that is not made to be heard. Yes, his family's suffering should be the focus now - they are the ones in pain. That doesn't negate Aaron's circumstances. It's still well-worth reflecting on those circumstance. Yes he chose it, some of it (not necessarily the depressive tendencies), but he also felt compelled for moral reasons to take a path. That's less like choice and more like moral imperative. I agreed with his imperative and it's sad to me to think people with those values face disproportionate burdens. It's OK if you disagree with that imperative, but we don't have to throw people we disagree with to the wolves either. That's bitterness, not problem-solving.
jlgreco 14y ago
This is the sort of attitude that contributes to the difficulty people who are considering suicide experience in getting help. Despite what the RCC and the like have drilled into western discussion for centuries, the depressed who consider or commit suicide are victims. Depression is a disease, not a sin, and this sort of stigmatization makes it all the more difficult to treat before it kills. With no other disease would we term it "inconsiderate" for the afflicted to die. (That is not to say that depression was the cause in this situation (though I strongly believe it was a contributing factor), but your "ultimate act of self-centeredness" bullshit is not discerning.)
- crikli 14y ago
  I'm doing an extraordinarily poor job of communicating today. I've had the Black Dog, as Churchill called depression, at my heels since I was a kid. Hereditary type thing, history of suicide in the family. 11 years ago I saw myself headed towards the edge of a cliff and made a phone call that saved and ultimately changed my life. Having dealt with the type of depression that leads one to that edge, I also know that one of the side effects is extreme self-absorption. You feel so shitty and hopeless that all you can think about is how shitty and hopeless things are, which creates a downward spiral that can ultimately lead to someone deciding to take their own life. Everything becomes about you and your pain, and there is not a way to just "suck it up" and get out of the pit, because depression doesn't work like that. It takes help from without. I.e., counseling, medication, etc, but because the person is so down just reaching out for those things can be like trying to reverse gravity. But I've also been on the other side of things, where a friend decided to kill himself, and I've seen how his decision emotionally eviscerated the people that loved him. Suicide truly is an incredibly self-centered act; the self-centeredness isn't a character flaw, it's an outgrowth of the disease. But that doesn't make it different from what it is, and it doesn't make the effects of that decision any less devastating to a person's loved ones. I fully realize that the above two paragraphs are somewhat ambivalent and that's because I'm pretty ambivalent towards those who commit suicide. Part of me feels sorrow that they got to that point, the other part feels like they're selfish a-holes. And somehow each part makes up more than half.
  - Volpe 14y ago
    I'd just mention, just because you've experienced depression, doesn't give you ultimate insight into how others experience it. There are different kinds, and their interactions with different personalities causes different things. With that in mind, making broad reaching statements "that suicide is always a selfish act" is just out-right incorrect. You are projecting your own feelings, based on your own experience. No one knows any suicide victim's state of mind, so how can we make statements about that state of mind?
rhizome 14y ago
While the survivors are the ones most able to receive your thoughts and care, empathy is not a zero-sum game.
starpilot 14y ago
Are we responsible for the emotions of others? If so, are others responsible for Swartz's depression? Then how is it selfish for him to act out the emotions put onto him by others? I don't buy the idea that a suicide victim "forces" people to feel guilt. That implies we are not responsible for our own emotions and that we expect others to live for our own personal welfare. Believing someone else is obligated to make us happy, despite his own incredible pain, is truly selfish.

by crikli 14y ago

vy8vWJlco 14y ago

In other words: "Stop crying, dammit, you're making everyone else feel bad." Suicide is a private whimper that is not made to be heard. Yes, his family's suffering should be the focus now - they are the ones in pain. That doesn't negate Aaron's circumstances. It's still well-worth reflecting on those circumstance. Yes he chose it, some of it (not necessarily the depressive tendencies), but he also felt compelled for moral reasons to take a path. That's less like choice and more like moral imperative. I agreed with his imperative and it's sad to me to think people with those values face disproportionate burdens. It's OK if you disagree with that imperative, but we don't have to throw people we disagree with to the wolves either. That's bitterness, not problem-solving.

jlgreco 14y ago

This is the sort of attitude that contributes to the difficulty people who are considering suicide experience in getting help. Despite what the RCC and the like have drilled into western discussion for centuries, the depressed who consider or commit suicide are victims. Depression is a disease, not a sin, and this sort of stigmatization makes it all the more difficult to treat before it kills. With no other disease would we term it "inconsiderate" for the afflicted to die. (That is not to say that depression was the cause in this situation (though I strongly believe it was a contributing factor), but your "ultimate act of self-centeredness" bullshit is not discerning.)

crikli 14y ago
I'm doing an extraordinarily poor job of communicating today. I've had the Black Dog, as Churchill called depression, at my heels since I was a kid. Hereditary type thing, history of suicide in the family. 11 years ago I saw myself headed towards the edge of a cliff and made a phone call that saved and ultimately changed my life. Having dealt with the type of depression that leads one to that edge, I also know that one of the side effects is extreme self-absorption. You feel so shitty and hopeless that all you can think about is how shitty and hopeless things are, which creates a downward spiral that can ultimately lead to someone deciding to take their own life. Everything becomes about you and your pain, and there is not a way to just "suck it up" and get out of the pit, because depression doesn't work like that. It takes help from without. I.e., counseling, medication, etc, but because the person is so down just reaching out for those things can be like trying to reverse gravity. But I've also been on the other side of things, where a friend decided to kill himself, and I've seen how his decision emotionally eviscerated the people that loved him. Suicide truly is an incredibly self-centered act; the self-centeredness isn't a character flaw, it's an outgrowth of the disease. But that doesn't make it different from what it is, and it doesn't make the effects of that decision any less devastating to a person's loved ones. I fully realize that the above two paragraphs are somewhat ambivalent and that's because I'm pretty ambivalent towards those who commit suicide. Part of me feels sorrow that they got to that point, the other part feels like they're selfish a-holes. And somehow each part makes up more than half.
- Volpe 14y ago
  I'd just mention, just because you've experienced depression, doesn't give you ultimate insight into how others experience it. There are different kinds, and their interactions with different personalities causes different things. With that in mind, making broad reaching statements "that suicide is always a selfish act" is just out-right incorrect. You are projecting your own feelings, based on your own experience. No one knows any suicide victim's state of mind, so how can we make statements about that state of mind?

rhizome 14y ago

While the survivors are the ones most able to receive your thoughts and care, empathy is not a zero-sum game.

starpilot 14y ago

Are we responsible for the emotions of others? If so, are others responsible for Swartz's depression? Then how is it selfish for him to act out the emotions put onto him by others? I don't buy the idea that a suicide victim "forces" people to feel guilt. That implies we are not responsible for our own emotions and that we expect others to live for our own personal welfare. Believing someone else is obligated to make us happy, despite his own incredible pain, is truly selfish.