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I couldn't agree more. I've sorta kept my mouth shut on the issue as HN has fallen all over itself eulogizing this guy as some type of martyr but good God, he

by crikli 14y ago

I couldn't agree more. I've sorta kept my mouth shut on the issue as HN has fallen all over itself eulogizing this guy as some type of martyr but good God, he pulled the trigger on himself.

vy8vWJlco 14y ago
And HN reverts to the "man up"/"suck it up buttercup"/"you made your bed, now sleep in it" passive-aggressive back-stabbing everyone-for himself sentiments. None of us asks to be born into our lives and circumstances. It doesn't make someone less deserving of empathy to choose what they consider a moral battle. You are basically saying he wasn't jaded enough for your liking, and as a result, deserved to feel as hopeless as he did. I consider myself anti-religous... Still: "If we are not our brother's keeper, at least let us not be his executioner." (Brando)
- crikli 14y ago
  The people for whom I have empathy are his parents, family, and friends who, by committing the ultimate act of self-centeredness, he has now forced to live the rest of their lives bearing a burden of sorrow and survivor's guilt.
  - vy8vWJlco 14y ago
    In other words: "Stop crying, dammit, you're making everyone else feel bad." Suicide is a private whimper that is not made to be heard. Yes, his family's suffering should be the focus now - they are the ones in pain. That doesn't negate Aaron's circumstances. It's still well-worth reflecting on those circumstance. Yes he chose it, some of it (not necessarily the depressive tendencies), but he also felt compelled for moral reasons to take a path. That's less like choice and more like moral imperative. I agreed with his imperative and it's sad to me to think people with those values face disproportionate burdens. It's OK if you disagree with that imperative, but we don't have to throw people we disagree with to the wolves either. That's bitterness, not problem-solving.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    This is the sort of attitude that contributes to the difficulty people who are considering suicide experience in getting help. Despite what the RCC and the like have drilled into western discussion for centuries, the depressed who consider or commit suicide are victims. Depression is a disease, not a sin, and this sort of stigmatization makes it all the more difficult to treat before it kills. With no other disease would we term it "inconsiderate" for the afflicted to die. (That is not to say that depression was the cause in this situation (though I strongly believe it was a contributing factor), but your "ultimate act of self-centeredness" bullshit is not discerning.)
    - crikli 14y ago
      I'm doing an extraordinarily poor job of communicating today. I've had the Black Dog, as Churchill called depression, at my heels since I was a kid. Hereditary type thing, history of suicide in the family. 11 years ago I saw myself headed towards the edge of a cliff and made a phone call that saved and ultimately changed my life. Having dealt with the type of depression that leads one to that edge, I also know that one of the side effects is extreme self-absorption. You feel so shitty and hopeless that all you can think about is how shitty and hopeless things are, which creates a downward spiral that can ultimately lead to someone deciding to take their own life. Everything becomes about you and your pain, and there is not a way to just "suck it up" and get out of the pit, because depression doesn't work like that. It takes help from without. I.e., counseling, medication, etc, but because the person is so down just reaching out for those things can be like trying to reverse gravity. But I've also been on the other side of things, where a friend decided to kill himself, and I've seen how his decision emotionally eviscerated the people that loved him. Suicide truly is an incredibly self-centered act; the self-centeredness isn't a character flaw, it's an outgrowth of the disease. But that doesn't make it different from what it is, and it doesn't make the effects of that decision any less devastating to a person's loved ones. I fully realize that the above two paragraphs are somewhat ambivalent and that's because I'm pretty ambivalent towards those who commit suicide. Part of me feels sorrow that they got to that point, the other part feels like they're selfish a-holes. And somehow each part makes up more than half.
      - 14y ago
  - rhizome 14y ago
    While the survivors are the ones most able to receive your thoughts and care, empathy is not a zero-sum game.
  - starpilot 14y ago
    Are we responsible for the emotions of others? If so, are others responsible for Swartz's depression? Then how is it selfish for him to act out the emotions put onto him by others? I don't buy the idea that a suicide victim "forces" people to feel guilt. That implies we are not responsible for our own emotions and that we expect others to live for our own personal welfare. Believing someone else is obligated to make us happy, despite his own incredible pain, is truly selfish.
- mberning 14y ago
  It's odd that personal accountability is now looked down upon so vehemently by so many. Nobody is saying that Swartz deserved to die. Nobody is saying that the his potential punishment wasn't unfair. There could have been an outcome to this situation where Swartz lives, accounts for his actions, and progress is made towards reforming the laws. Now instead of having a legitimate debate about the appropriateness of existing laws we are dealing with an endless amount of bleeding heart sentiment that does nothing to correct the perceived injustice.
  - vy8vWJlco 14y ago
    I'm not against accountability, and I'm not criticizing you wanting to focus on change. If you have no patience for other people, some of whom are still simply upset (I've moved on, I'm just commenting), that also doesn't mean you have to wait for them any more than you have to resent them for being in a different stage of grief, or dismiss their progress because it's not your progress. "Bleeding hearts" aren't really stopping any of the discussions you want... You are still free to start them; they might not even happen without you. Calling people names ("bleeding hearts") might, however, discourage others from participating with you in the discussions you want to happen.
- DigitalJack 14y ago
  Those things to the left of the timestamps are usernames. They belong to individuals. Individuals post their opinions on HN. Do not conflate the opinions of individuals with some sort of concept of the stance of HN. The set of individuals posting on one thread may have little or no overlap with the individuals posting on another thread.
  - vy8vWJlco 14y ago
    I upvoted you because you're quite right. (That said, 2 points make a line and at the time there were 2 comments with the same sentiment just cordially agreeing with each other, and it didn't look like anyone was going to disagree.)

by crikli 14y ago

I couldn't agree more. I've sorta kept my mouth shut on the issue as HN has fallen all over itself eulogizing this guy as some type of martyr but good God, he pulled the trigger on himself.

vy8vWJlco 14y ago

And HN reverts to the "man up"/"suck it up buttercup"/"you made your bed, now sleep in it" passive-aggressive back-stabbing everyone-for himself sentiments. None of us asks to be born into our lives and circumstances. It doesn't make someone less deserving of empathy to choose what they consider a moral battle. You are basically saying he wasn't jaded enough for your liking, and as a result, deserved to feel as hopeless as he did. I consider myself anti-religous... Still: "If we are not our brother's keeper, at least let us not be his executioner." (Brando)

crikli 14y ago
The people for whom I have empathy are his parents, family, and friends who, by committing the ultimate act of self-centeredness, he has now forced to live the rest of their lives bearing a burden of sorrow and survivor's guilt.
- vy8vWJlco 14y ago
  In other words: "Stop crying, dammit, you're making everyone else feel bad." Suicide is a private whimper that is not made to be heard. Yes, his family's suffering should be the focus now - they are the ones in pain. That doesn't negate Aaron's circumstances. It's still well-worth reflecting on those circumstance. Yes he chose it, some of it (not necessarily the depressive tendencies), but he also felt compelled for moral reasons to take a path. That's less like choice and more like moral imperative. I agreed with his imperative and it's sad to me to think people with those values face disproportionate burdens. It's OK if you disagree with that imperative, but we don't have to throw people we disagree with to the wolves either. That's bitterness, not problem-solving.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  This is the sort of attitude that contributes to the difficulty people who are considering suicide experience in getting help. Despite what the RCC and the like have drilled into western discussion for centuries, the depressed who consider or commit suicide are victims. Depression is a disease, not a sin, and this sort of stigmatization makes it all the more difficult to treat before it kills. With no other disease would we term it "inconsiderate" for the afflicted to die. (That is not to say that depression was the cause in this situation (though I strongly believe it was a contributing factor), but your "ultimate act of self-centeredness" bullshit is not discerning.)
  - crikli 14y ago
    I'm doing an extraordinarily poor job of communicating today. I've had the Black Dog, as Churchill called depression, at my heels since I was a kid. Hereditary type thing, history of suicide in the family. 11 years ago I saw myself headed towards the edge of a cliff and made a phone call that saved and ultimately changed my life. Having dealt with the type of depression that leads one to that edge, I also know that one of the side effects is extreme self-absorption. You feel so shitty and hopeless that all you can think about is how shitty and hopeless things are, which creates a downward spiral that can ultimately lead to someone deciding to take their own life. Everything becomes about you and your pain, and there is not a way to just "suck it up" and get out of the pit, because depression doesn't work like that. It takes help from without. I.e., counseling, medication, etc, but because the person is so down just reaching out for those things can be like trying to reverse gravity. But I've also been on the other side of things, where a friend decided to kill himself, and I've seen how his decision emotionally eviscerated the people that loved him. Suicide truly is an incredibly self-centered act; the self-centeredness isn't a character flaw, it's an outgrowth of the disease. But that doesn't make it different from what it is, and it doesn't make the effects of that decision any less devastating to a person's loved ones. I fully realize that the above two paragraphs are somewhat ambivalent and that's because I'm pretty ambivalent towards those who commit suicide. Part of me feels sorrow that they got to that point, the other part feels like they're selfish a-holes. And somehow each part makes up more than half.
    - 14y ago
- rhizome 14y ago
  While the survivors are the ones most able to receive your thoughts and care, empathy is not a zero-sum game.
- starpilot 14y ago
  Are we responsible for the emotions of others? If so, are others responsible for Swartz's depression? Then how is it selfish for him to act out the emotions put onto him by others? I don't buy the idea that a suicide victim "forces" people to feel guilt. That implies we are not responsible for our own emotions and that we expect others to live for our own personal welfare. Believing someone else is obligated to make us happy, despite his own incredible pain, is truly selfish.
mberning 14y ago
It's odd that personal accountability is now looked down upon so vehemently by so many. Nobody is saying that Swartz deserved to die. Nobody is saying that the his potential punishment wasn't unfair. There could have been an outcome to this situation where Swartz lives, accounts for his actions, and progress is made towards reforming the laws. Now instead of having a legitimate debate about the appropriateness of existing laws we are dealing with an endless amount of bleeding heart sentiment that does nothing to correct the perceived injustice.
- vy8vWJlco 14y ago
  I'm not against accountability, and I'm not criticizing you wanting to focus on change. If you have no patience for other people, some of whom are still simply upset (I've moved on, I'm just commenting), that also doesn't mean you have to wait for them any more than you have to resent them for being in a different stage of grief, or dismiss their progress because it's not your progress. "Bleeding hearts" aren't really stopping any of the discussions you want... You are still free to start them; they might not even happen without you. Calling people names ("bleeding hearts") might, however, discourage others from participating with you in the discussions you want to happen.
DigitalJack 14y ago
Those things to the left of the timestamps are usernames. They belong to individuals. Individuals post their opinions on HN. Do not conflate the opinions of individuals with some sort of concept of the stance of HN. The set of individuals posting on one thread may have little or no overlap with the individuals posting on another thread.
- vy8vWJlco 14y ago
  I upvoted you because you're quite right. (That said, 2 points make a line and at the time there were 2 comments with the same sentiment just cordially agreeing with each other, and it didn't look like anyone was going to disagree.)