4 ms·

I did a quick google and found a discussion of retroactive tax laws (applying to gift taxes in 2010): http://www.assetprotectionsociety.org/the-likelihood-and-

by basseq 14y ago

I did a quick google and found a discussion of retroactive tax laws (applying to gift taxes in 2010): http://www.assetprotectionsociety.org/the-likelihood-and-enforceability-of-a-retroactive-tax-2/ http://www.assetprotectionsociety.org/the-likelihood-and-enf... Potential arguments include due process, "wholly new tax", lack of notice, ex post facto (with the same caveat as mentioned here about applicability only to criminal cases), and the fifth amendment taking clause. Conclusion: it's hard to fight.

bjornsing 14y ago
Some things about the US still surprise me. In "socialist Sweden" (as it's sometimes called) retroactive taxation is unconstitutional. On the other hand capital gains is 20-30%, and most entrepreneurs actually have their gains taxed as income. That means you're lucky if you get to keep 13%. ;) I'm exaggerating a bit, but not much.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  > Some things about the US still surprise me. In "socialist Sweden" (as it's sometimes called) retroactive taxation is unconstitutional. The difference between the US and postage-stamp-sized European countries like Sweden is that there is great political and cultural variation between different parts of the US. California is chock full of socialists/liberals.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - rosser 14y ago
    postage-stamp-sized European countries like Sweden At 174K mi^2, Sweden is larger than California's 164K mi^2.
    - aaronblohowiak 14y ago
      Population-wise, Sweden is about the same as new york city.
    - w1ntermute 14y ago
      You're being intentionally obtuse. As is immediately apparent if you look at a population density map of Sweden[0], the vast majority of the population is concentrated in the southern part of the country. 0: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Swedishpopdensity.svg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Swedishpo...
      - rosser 14y ago
        If you meant population, you should have said population. The phrase "postage-stamp-sized European countries" is pretty broadly understood and used to mean things like Andorra, Lichtenstein, Luxembourg, Malta, Montenegro, &c. By no stretch of the imagination is interpreting a widely-used phrase as it's widely used "being intentionally obtuse."
  - georgemcbay 14y ago
    I'm a socialist/liberal who lives in California and I think the idea of retroactive taxation on anything (be it person or business), is nightmareish and should be abolished.
  - MaysonL 14y ago
    Given that Sweden is about 10% larger than California, albeit with less than a third the population, it's hardly "postage-stamp-sized". Given that we elected Reagan, Schwarzenegger, and David Dreier, California's chock full o' wingnuts as well as socialists/liberals.
    - w1ntermute 14y ago
      > Given that Sweden is about 10% larger than California, albeit with less than a third the population, it's hardly "postage-stamp-sized". I already addressed this point below in response to another reply: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5062138 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5062138 > Given that we elected Reagan, Schwarzenegger, and David Dreier, California's chock full o' wingnuts as well as socialists/liberals. I'm not familiar with Dreier, but there's no doubt that Californians have a soft spot for actors.
- sp332 14y ago
  It's not retroactive taxation. The Supreme Court pointed out that a tax break enacted several years ago was unconstitutional.
  - viggity 14y ago
    most tax bills have a severability clause in them, meaning that is one part is struck down, the rest remain in force. I don't know that was the case with this particular law.
- toyg 14y ago
  It's technically unconstitutional in Italy as well, but it keeps happening over ad over... "Emergency measures".
lisper 14y ago
> applicability only to criminal cases Where do you get that? The Constitution says simply: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed." Period, end of story. Just because someone on the Internet says this applies only to criminal law doesn't make it so.
- bradleyjg 14y ago
  How about the US Supreme Court: See Carpenter v. Pennsylvania, 58 U.S. 456 (1854): "The debates in the federal convention upon the Constitution show that the terms "ex post facto laws" were understood in a restricted sense, relating to criminal cases only, and that the description of Blackstone of such laws was referred to for their meaning. 3 Mad.Pap. 1399, 1450, 1579. This signification was adopted in this Court shortly after its organization in opinions carefully prepared, and has been repeatedly announced since that time. Calder v. Bull, 3 Dall. 386; Fletcher v. Peck, 6 Cranch 87; 33 U. S. 8 Pet. 88; 36 U. S. 11 Pet. 421."
  - lisper 14y ago
    The Court gets things wrong occasionally. They got this wrong. Legislative intent does not trump the clear unambiguous wording of the law. This is why, for example, minting the trillion dollar coin would be legal despite the fact that this was clearly not the intent of the legislation.
    - dragonwriter 14y ago
      "Ex post facto law" was a well-established legal term of art referring to a class of criminal law either imposing new prohibitions or increasing punishments for crimes committed before the law was enacted well before the Constitution was written. Legislative intent doesn't trump the clear and unambiguous wording of the law, but the clear and unambiguous meaning of "ex post facto law" is the particular class of criminal law that the phrase "ex post facto law" has always referred to.
    - bradleyjg 14y ago
      ex post facto isn't English, it's not even really Latin. It's a legalism. The go to source of meaning for Anglo legalism in the late 19th century was Blackstone's "Commentaries on the Laws of England" . It's the Blackstone definition that the Court adopted.
dragonwriter 14y ago
This isn't a retroactive tax law, its the implementation of a court striking down as unconsitution a statute allowing for a certain set of exemptions and deferrals from a pre-existing tax.

by basseq 14y ago

bjornsing 14y ago

Some things about the US still surprise me. In "socialist Sweden" (as it's sometimes called) retroactive taxation is unconstitutional. On the other hand capital gains is 20-30%, and most entrepreneurs actually have their gains taxed as income. That means you're lucky if you get to keep 13%. ;) I'm exaggerating a bit, but not much.

w1ntermute 14y ago
> Some things about the US still surprise me. In "socialist Sweden" (as it's sometimes called) retroactive taxation is unconstitutional. The difference between the US and postage-stamp-sized European countries like Sweden is that there is great political and cultural variation between different parts of the US. California is chock full of socialists/liberals.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- rosser 14y ago
  postage-stamp-sized European countries like Sweden At 174K mi^2, Sweden is larger than California's 164K mi^2.
  - aaronblohowiak 14y ago
    Population-wise, Sweden is about the same as new york city.
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    You're being intentionally obtuse. As is immediately apparent if you look at a population density map of Sweden[0], the vast majority of the population is concentrated in the southern part of the country. 0: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Swedishpopdensity.svg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Swedishpo...
    - rosser 14y ago
      If you meant population, you should have said population. The phrase "postage-stamp-sized European countries" is pretty broadly understood and used to mean things like Andorra, Lichtenstein, Luxembourg, Malta, Montenegro, &c. By no stretch of the imagination is interpreting a widely-used phrase as it's widely used "being intentionally obtuse."
- georgemcbay 14y ago
  I'm a socialist/liberal who lives in California and I think the idea of retroactive taxation on anything (be it person or business), is nightmareish and should be abolished.
- MaysonL 14y ago
  Given that Sweden is about 10% larger than California, albeit with less than a third the population, it's hardly "postage-stamp-sized". Given that we elected Reagan, Schwarzenegger, and David Dreier, California's chock full o' wingnuts as well as socialists/liberals.
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    > Given that Sweden is about 10% larger than California, albeit with less than a third the population, it's hardly "postage-stamp-sized". I already addressed this point below in response to another reply: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5062138 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5062138 > Given that we elected Reagan, Schwarzenegger, and David Dreier, California's chock full o' wingnuts as well as socialists/liberals. I'm not familiar with Dreier, but there's no doubt that Californians have a soft spot for actors.
sp332 14y ago
It's not retroactive taxation. The Supreme Court pointed out that a tax break enacted several years ago was unconstitutional.
- viggity 14y ago
  most tax bills have a severability clause in them, meaning that is one part is struck down, the rest remain in force. I don't know that was the case with this particular law.
toyg 14y ago
It's technically unconstitutional in Italy as well, but it keeps happening over ad over... "Emergency measures".

lisper 14y ago

> applicability only to criminal cases Where do you get that? The Constitution says simply: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed." Period, end of story. Just because someone on the Internet says this applies only to criminal law doesn't make it so.

bradleyjg 14y ago
How about the US Supreme Court: See Carpenter v. Pennsylvania, 58 U.S. 456 (1854): "The debates in the federal convention upon the Constitution show that the terms "ex post facto laws" were understood in a restricted sense, relating to criminal cases only, and that the description of Blackstone of such laws was referred to for their meaning. 3 Mad.Pap. 1399, 1450, 1579. This signification was adopted in this Court shortly after its organization in opinions carefully prepared, and has been repeatedly announced since that time. Calder v. Bull, 3 Dall. 386; Fletcher v. Peck, 6 Cranch 87; 33 U. S. 8 Pet. 88; 36 U. S. 11 Pet. 421."
- lisper 14y ago
  The Court gets things wrong occasionally. They got this wrong. Legislative intent does not trump the clear unambiguous wording of the law. This is why, for example, minting the trillion dollar coin would be legal despite the fact that this was clearly not the intent of the legislation.
  - dragonwriter 14y ago
    "Ex post facto law" was a well-established legal term of art referring to a class of criminal law either imposing new prohibitions or increasing punishments for crimes committed before the law was enacted well before the Constitution was written. Legislative intent doesn't trump the clear and unambiguous wording of the law, but the clear and unambiguous meaning of "ex post facto law" is the particular class of criminal law that the phrase "ex post facto law" has always referred to.
  - bradleyjg 14y ago
    ex post facto isn't English, it's not even really Latin. It's a legalism. The go to source of meaning for Anglo legalism in the late 19th century was Blackstone's "Commentaries on the Laws of England" . It's the Blackstone definition that the Court adopted.

dragonwriter 14y ago

This isn't a retroactive tax law, its the implementation of a court striking down as unconsitution a statute allowing for a certain set of exemptions and deferrals from a pre-existing tax.