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Link to the original article being summarized and discussed in this blog post: http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/02/03/dont-try-to-dodge-the-recession-with-gr

by alabut 18y ago

Link to the original article being summarized and discussed in this blog post: http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/02/03/dont-try-to-dodge-the-recession-with-grad-school/#more-2071 http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/02/03/dont-try-to-dodge-t... And the overall bullet points: 1. Grad school pointlessly delays adulthood. 2. PhD programs are pyramid schemes 3. Business school is not going to help 90% of the people who go. 4. Law school is a factory for depressives. 5. The medical school model assumes that health care spending is not a mess. 6. Going to grad school is like going into the military. 7. Most jobs are better than they seem: You can learn from any job.

mhb 18y ago
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=501428 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=501428
endtime 18y ago
I know you are just summarizing (thanks) so don't take this as a response to you - but I strongly disagree with a couple of the points the author makes (I don't feel I can reply to the ones that don't apply to me). >1. Grad school pointlessly delays adulthood. Maybe it delays adulthood a bit, in some respect, but I certainly wouldn't call it pointless. I've learned a huge amount in the last six months (which is how long I've been a grad student). >6. Going to grad school is like going into the military. The justification for this: Applications to the military increase in a bad economy in a disturbingly similar way that applications to graduate school do. For the most part, both alternatives are bad. They limit your future in ways you can’t even imagine, and they are not likely to open the kind of doors you really want. Military is the terrible escape hatch for poor kids, and grad school is the terrible escape hatch for rich kids. That's a horrible argument. Just because more people go to the army at the same time more people go to grad school doesn't mean the experience is at all similar (for one, I'm pretty sure most soldiers get more sleep than I do). I was going to say that I can't imagine how a master's could limit my future, but that would actually be consistent with the author's claim, so I'll instead say that without justification I don't accept that a master's will limit my future. And the whole rich kids/poor kids thing at the end is just...I mean...I don't know many rich grad students, I'll put it that way.
- alabut 18y ago
  No offense taken and upvoted. I think the article oversimplifies things to a degree, so it's also a reflection of the author's viewpoint and in that sense almost comes across as rationalization. But that doesn't mean the points aren't correct - I had a unique job right out of college that gave me a lot of firsthand experience with a top notch phd program and allowed me to witness the grad student lifestyle w/o having to go myself. I was a web developer for the biology department of my college and worked out of a research building, separate from all the other admin staff, which was great because I got to hang out with people my own age, all the grad students (and even some of the younger associate profs) near my office. And seeing them go through the phd program definitely gave me the strong impression that the ones that survived (at least in a mentally stable way) were the ones that loved research and academia, or at least could make themselves love it over long periods of time. It's not to say you're locked into academia as a career if you get a phd - one of my good friends went on to join a bio startup, there's a lot of those in San Diego - it's just that it's the default path and most of the above bullet points are still true, especially the pyramid scheme part. They're basically slave labor for whichever prof heads up their lab. It's worth noting that you can and should apply #7 - Most jobs are better than they seem: You can learn from any job - to grad school as well and treat it as a job with a long term contract, one that you need to mine for all kinds of interesting things that you didn't think you'd learn. For example, I bet a lot of people (understandably) go into a top neuroscience or cell biology program thinking they'll learn a lot about biology and research, and they do, but the ones that did really well learned things like how to manage your time well, motivate yourself on an independent schedule, network in a loose non-corporate environment and blow off steam with non-contact sports.
  - endtime 18y ago
    >It's worth noting that you can and should apply #7 - Most jobs are better than they seem: You can learn from any job - to grad school as well and treat it as a job with a long term contract, one that you need to mine for all kinds of interesting things that you didn't think you'd learn. For example, I bet a lot of people (understandably) go into a top neuroscience or cell biology program thinking they'll learn a lot about biology and research, and they do, but the ones that did really well learned things like how to manage your time well, motivate yourself on an independent schedule, network in a loose non-corporate environment and blow off steam with non-contact sports. Very good point. I'm learning a lot about CS, but I'm also learning my limits in terms of how much work I can do in general, and how to handle being overwhelmed. I'm making excellent contacts. I'm learning to organize myself better (and actually use a calendar). Even without the CS, I will leave grad school better prepared for the workplace than I came in.
aswanson 18y ago
1. Grad school pointlessly delays adulthood. I learned useful information about my area of interest as well as myself during grad school. I also supported myself the entire time. That is part of what adults need to do.
- MrRage 18y ago
  I second that. I did a lot a maturing during grad school. It is a job (especially the TA part), and is a lot of work. I think people who say grad school delays adulthood never went themselves, and they think school == for children.
  - endtime 18y ago
    Agreed 100%. TAing a class with 240 students is no joke (no, I'm not the only TA). I am looking forward to my summer internship because I think it's going to be a lot more relaxing than school. I'll have time to buy my own groceries (vs. Safeway delivery), I'll only work five days a week, I will be able to sleep 6-7 hours ever night, etc. Being a grad student is very unlike being an undergrad. Plus, grad school finally got me to stop playing WoW - I suspect that if I'd gotten a job right out of undergrad I would still be playing.

by alabut 18y ago

mhb 18y ago

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=501428 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=501428

endtime 18y ago

I know you are just summarizing (thanks) so don't take this as a response to you - but I strongly disagree with a couple of the points the author makes (I don't feel I can reply to the ones that don't apply to me). >1. Grad school pointlessly delays adulthood. Maybe it delays adulthood a bit, in some respect, but I certainly wouldn't call it pointless. I've learned a huge amount in the last six months (which is how long I've been a grad student). >6. Going to grad school is like going into the military. The justification for this: Applications to the military increase in a bad economy in a disturbingly similar way that applications to graduate school do. For the most part, both alternatives are bad. They limit your future in ways you can’t even imagine, and they are not likely to open the kind of doors you really want. Military is the terrible escape hatch for poor kids, and grad school is the terrible escape hatch for rich kids. That's a horrible argument. Just because more people go to the army at the same time more people go to grad school doesn't mean the experience is at all similar (for one, I'm pretty sure most soldiers get more sleep than I do). I was going to say that I can't imagine how a master's could limit my future, but that would actually be consistent with the author's claim, so I'll instead say that without justification I don't accept that a master's will limit my future. And the whole rich kids/poor kids thing at the end is just...I mean...I don't know many rich grad students, I'll put it that way.

alabut 18y ago
No offense taken and upvoted. I think the article oversimplifies things to a degree, so it's also a reflection of the author's viewpoint and in that sense almost comes across as rationalization. But that doesn't mean the points aren't correct - I had a unique job right out of college that gave me a lot of firsthand experience with a top notch phd program and allowed me to witness the grad student lifestyle w/o having to go myself. I was a web developer for the biology department of my college and worked out of a research building, separate from all the other admin staff, which was great because I got to hang out with people my own age, all the grad students (and even some of the younger associate profs) near my office. And seeing them go through the phd program definitely gave me the strong impression that the ones that survived (at least in a mentally stable way) were the ones that loved research and academia, or at least could make themselves love it over long periods of time. It's not to say you're locked into academia as a career if you get a phd - one of my good friends went on to join a bio startup, there's a lot of those in San Diego - it's just that it's the default path and most of the above bullet points are still true, especially the pyramid scheme part. They're basically slave labor for whichever prof heads up their lab. It's worth noting that you can and should apply #7 - Most jobs are better than they seem: You can learn from any job - to grad school as well and treat it as a job with a long term contract, one that you need to mine for all kinds of interesting things that you didn't think you'd learn. For example, I bet a lot of people (understandably) go into a top neuroscience or cell biology program thinking they'll learn a lot about biology and research, and they do, but the ones that did really well learned things like how to manage your time well, motivate yourself on an independent schedule, network in a loose non-corporate environment and blow off steam with non-contact sports.
- endtime 18y ago
  >It's worth noting that you can and should apply #7 - Most jobs are better than they seem: You can learn from any job - to grad school as well and treat it as a job with a long term contract, one that you need to mine for all kinds of interesting things that you didn't think you'd learn. For example, I bet a lot of people (understandably) go into a top neuroscience or cell biology program thinking they'll learn a lot about biology and research, and they do, but the ones that did really well learned things like how to manage your time well, motivate yourself on an independent schedule, network in a loose non-corporate environment and blow off steam with non-contact sports. Very good point. I'm learning a lot about CS, but I'm also learning my limits in terms of how much work I can do in general, and how to handle being overwhelmed. I'm making excellent contacts. I'm learning to organize myself better (and actually use a calendar). Even without the CS, I will leave grad school better prepared for the workplace than I came in.

aswanson 18y ago

1. Grad school pointlessly delays adulthood. I learned useful information about my area of interest as well as myself during grad school. I also supported myself the entire time. That is part of what adults need to do.

MrRage 18y ago
I second that. I did a lot a maturing during grad school. It is a job (especially the TA part), and is a lot of work. I think people who say grad school delays adulthood never went themselves, and they think school == for children.
- endtime 18y ago
  Agreed 100%. TAing a class with 240 students is no joke (no, I'm not the only TA). I am looking forward to my summer internship because I think it's going to be a lot more relaxing than school. I'll have time to buy my own groceries (vs. Safeway delivery), I'll only work five days a week, I will be able to sleep 6-7 hours ever night, etc. Being a grad student is very unlike being an undergrad. Plus, grad school finally got me to stop playing WoW - I suspect that if I'd gotten a job right out of undergrad I would still be playing.