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That's a very legitimate question. How can teachers do the best with the resources they're given and the the children they're working with, no matter how threa

by gnosis 14y ago

That's a very legitimate question. How can teachers do the best with the resources they're given and the the children they're working with, no matter how threadbare the resources are, and no matter how traumatized and disadvantaged their students are? Whether standardized tests have a role in answering that question or in evaluating teacher performance is hotly debated right now. But the purpose of my original post was to draw attention to a different question: How can society as a whole ensure that every child gets the best education possible? In schools that have no problem attracting resources, great teachers, and children with mostly fortunate backgrounds, perhaps this second question can be answered by asking the first: how can we improve our teachers? But in schools that lack resources, whose students live in abuse, poverty, and despair, what even an exceptional teacher can do will be radically limited, and society would probably be better off focusing on how to eradicate poverty -- the real cause behind the failure of too much education in this country. Unfortunately, seriously tackling the issue of poverty is much harder (and even contrary to some dominant American ideologies) than simply demanding more standardized tests be given and blaming teachers and their unions.

crusso 14y ago
How can society as a whole ensure that every child gets the best education possible? Step one, define "best education possible". Step two, learn to measure whether or not a child is getting one (or the closest you can come to it). Step three, maximize some aggregate or regionalized version of your measurements through restructuring of school systems, rewards for good schools and teachers, etc. The study in this article is just gets us to step two. It looks like you're wanting to discuss step three. That's a different can of worms.
- randomdata 14y ago
  It is not even clear if the article gets to step one. Some of the teachers who I feel had the greatest impact on my education taught classes that I did not necessarily score well in. If I am a statistical norm, those teachers would be consider poor teachers according to the metrics, contrary to reality.
  - crusso 14y ago
    This is where I have an issue with this discussion. You're throwing up anecdotal data in the face of an actual study. Why is that okay in a community like this that understands the Scientific Method and should have a basic understanding of statistics.
    - randomdata 14y ago
      The only point I was trying to make is that test scores do not necessarily define the success of a teacher. I suggest, to be able to apply scientific method and get meaningful results will require far more data than is seemingly being collected.
      - yummyfajitas 14y ago
        What data do you feel is needed, but not there?
- sopooneo 14y ago
  What about prenatal counselling and early childhood nutrition programs and parenting classes? What if those things in underprivileged areas has more affect on educational outcomes (however defined) than teacher selection?
ameister14 14y ago
I grew up in two very different places; Bethesda, MD and Winthrop, ME. The former is a fairly wealthy suburb of DC. The latter is an extremely rural mill-town in Maine. I know that the funding the schools get is blamed for a lot of their problems, and I understand where people who talk about how hard it is to teach kids with behavioral issues and histories of abuse are coming from. I sympathize, but I also think that's a cop-out. I had bad teachers in both places. In Winthrop, I had horrible teachers. They took away advanced classes because an outside contractor thought it created elitist attitudes and putting smart kids in the regular classes would boost overall performance. I had science teachers that just had us play with legos all day and gave A's to all the basketball players. I had math teachers that would lose assignments and blame the students. These were not well-meaning teachers that just had it hard trying to teach these poor kids. These were people that shouldn't have been teaching at all, but could not be replaced. My parents actually went up to the school a few times to try and talk to the administration and teachers about what was going on. A lot of people did. They got push-back and were asked not to meddle. There were 2 great teachers there and that's why I didn't completely screw up my life at that point. I've spoken to a lot of people with similar experiences; 1 great teacher that pushed them to be successful. That's why it's so maddening to me when people say that it's not the teacher's fault, that they can't do anything about it. I know that's not entirely what your intent with your post was, but focusing on external environmental issues and bemoaning the poverty of the student body can come across that way. While poverty is a major issue, and teaching is hard, I don't think you can solve the problems by just changing the student's home environment. You have to change the teachers as well. Lots of jobs are hard. Doctors have to deal with unruly patients who refuse to change their diet or exercise. Don't they get blamed when their patients don't improve?

by gnosis 14y ago

crusso 14y ago

How can society as a whole ensure that every child gets the best education possible? Step one, define "best education possible". Step two, learn to measure whether or not a child is getting one (or the closest you can come to it). Step three, maximize some aggregate or regionalized version of your measurements through restructuring of school systems, rewards for good schools and teachers, etc. The study in this article is just gets us to step two. It looks like you're wanting to discuss step three. That's a different can of worms.

randomdata 14y ago
It is not even clear if the article gets to step one. Some of the teachers who I feel had the greatest impact on my education taught classes that I did not necessarily score well in. If I am a statistical norm, those teachers would be consider poor teachers according to the metrics, contrary to reality.
- crusso 14y ago
  This is where I have an issue with this discussion. You're throwing up anecdotal data in the face of an actual study. Why is that okay in a community like this that understands the Scientific Method and should have a basic understanding of statistics.
  - randomdata 14y ago
    The only point I was trying to make is that test scores do not necessarily define the success of a teacher. I suggest, to be able to apply scientific method and get meaningful results will require far more data than is seemingly being collected.
    - yummyfajitas 14y ago
      What data do you feel is needed, but not there?
sopooneo 14y ago
What about prenatal counselling and early childhood nutrition programs and parenting classes? What if those things in underprivileged areas has more affect on educational outcomes (however defined) than teacher selection?

ameister14 14y ago

I grew up in two very different places; Bethesda, MD and Winthrop, ME. The former is a fairly wealthy suburb of DC. The latter is an extremely rural mill-town in Maine. I know that the funding the schools get is blamed for a lot of their problems, and I understand where people who talk about how hard it is to teach kids with behavioral issues and histories of abuse are coming from. I sympathize, but I also think that's a cop-out. I had bad teachers in both places. In Winthrop, I had horrible teachers. They took away advanced classes because an outside contractor thought it created elitist attitudes and putting smart kids in the regular classes would boost overall performance. I had science teachers that just had us play with legos all day and gave A's to all the basketball players. I had math teachers that would lose assignments and blame the students. These were not well-meaning teachers that just had it hard trying to teach these poor kids. These were people that shouldn't have been teaching at all, but could not be replaced. My parents actually went up to the school a few times to try and talk to the administration and teachers about what was going on. A lot of people did. They got push-back and were asked not to meddle. There were 2 great teachers there and that's why I didn't completely screw up my life at that point. I've spoken to a lot of people with similar experiences; 1 great teacher that pushed them to be successful. That's why it's so maddening to me when people say that it's not the teacher's fault, that they can't do anything about it. I know that's not entirely what your intent with your post was, but focusing on external environmental issues and bemoaning the poverty of the student body can come across that way. While poverty is a major issue, and teaching is hard, I don't think you can solve the problems by just changing the student's home environment. You have to change the teachers as well. Lots of jobs are hard. Doctors have to deal with unruly patients who refuse to change their diet or exercise. Don't they get blamed when their patients don't improve?