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It's common for people who received good educations to say that test scores aren't an acceptable indication of learning. It's probably true that if you already

It's common for people who received good educations to say that test scores aren't an acceptable indication of learning. It's probably true that if you already have an acceptable level of education, test scores shouldn't be too important, but it seems like the people criticizing test scores haven't experienced what education is like for the children being "left behind." In middle school, the last three weeks of each semester were spent watching movies (the same two or three movies over and over). In high school, I was taught that the big bang theory was when the continents divided. I was taught that the most direct route between two points on the globe is through the north pole. My Spanish and woodworking teachers taught math because they knew that the math teachers weren't doing it. When you're talking about schools like the ones I went to (which weren't nearly as bad as many other schools in America) I think that test scores are a decent indicator of the education a student is receiving. You're measuring things like "can this kid read English" and "can they multiply two numbers together." Standardized tests are certainly capable of measuring things like that. Testing probably breaks down for measuring intelligence/education as the level of education improves, but I encourage everyone to consider just how dysfunctional many schools are before ignoring testing entirely.

roguecoder 14y ago
Except that even those things don't predict later success. Any kid with a family that can afford books will score higher on "can this kid read English". Any kid who's been drilled can learn to multiply two numbers together. Without cognitive skills behind them, though, those are not useful abilities. The best predictors of future success are self-control, emotional intelligence and a grasp of functional algebra (which I believe, but don't have evidence to support, is because of the importance of computational and systems-level thinking.) Only one of those, self-control, is even indirectly measured by current standardized tests.
- ims 14y ago
  > Any kid with a family that can afford books will score higher on "can this kid read English". True, but there are also many families that can afford books but don't buy them, instead spending money on other things. Not having books in the house has been shown to correlate with decreased academic success.[1] I'm not saying this isn't a wealth issue, but that probably isn't the only dimension. [1] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0276562410000090 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0276562410...
- Nitramp 14y ago
  > Without cognitive skills behind them, though, [multiplication, reading] are not useful abilities. Maybe I misunderstand you, but I fail to see how multiplication or reading are not useful skills. Good reading comprehension will help you navigate life in general, which is something lots of people struggle with. Similar for multiplication. Even if someone is not very intelligent, if he's mastered a basic skill like that, he'll find lots of places to apply it. That's why there's so much emphasis in school on them.
- sp332 14y ago
  I think it's worth emphasizing that the research done in this article doesn't look at kids' absolute test scores, but only the difference between test scores before and after the school year. Also, my school emphasized self-control, but how do you learn emotional intelligence?
  - roguecoder 14y ago
    While it is a relatively recent topic of interest, surprisingly it doesn't seem particularly difficult to teach. Much of the research is still in the preliminary stages, but one study found persistent improvement after a brief four-session intervention: http://orbi.ulg.ac.be/bitstream/2268/30253/1/Nelis%20PAID%202009.pdf http://orbi.ulg.ac.be/bitstream/2268/30253/1/Nelis%20PAID%20... It will take further work to associate learning such skills with the positive outcomes associated with the skills themselves and figure out what the best ways to teach the skills are, but current research is promising.
    - sp332 14y ago
      Cool, thanks!
- sopooneo 14y ago
  From my work teaching I am very skeptical of the notion that it is a family's ability to "afford" books that makes the difference. It is whether the family knows that books are important and chooses to get them and read with their children. While monetary poverty is horrible, it's effect on educational outcome is dwarfed in comparison to cultural dysfunction and despair.
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    Yeah, the monetary poverty theory doesn't hold up when it comes to the case of poor Asian (or African) immigrants. Although it certainly plays some role when all other things are equal, I think the major issue to be tackled is the glorification of thug life and demonization of education in contemporary African American culture.
  - roguecoder 14y ago
    Sorry, that was unclear: the study I was thinking of specifically looked at giving poor families children's books and founded a measurable improvement in English skills. Of course access to a library that is open when a parent doesn't have to work, the time and energy to read to children and many other factors also play a role in early exposure to literacy.
- lonnyk 14y ago
  >Any kid with a family that can afford books will score higher on "can this kid read English". I don't think this is true. Those who can't afford books can goto the public library and get them.
  - danielweber 14y ago
    Plus, books are really really really cheap. Go to any Goodwill or Salvation Army or Once Upon A Child and you will find gobs and gobs of books at very cheap prices. Yes, even undamaged. We toss lots of books in the trash in America, not because we hate books, but because we make so many of them and then need to make room for the new books. "Able to afford books" was once a status symbol. It's not any more. See also: http://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2011/10/12/141265066/hard-choices-do-libraries-really-destroy-books http://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2011/10/12/141265066/hard...
  - infinite8s 14y ago
    This was more a correlation than causation (see Freakonomics for a description). Typically, families that can't afford books have other general issues that preclude their children from doing well (for example, they are poor, their parents typically work more than 1 job and can't spend much time with their children, etc).
- tbrownaw 14y ago
  I didn't read that as saying that testing can predict (outstanding) success. I read it as saying that testing can detect (outstanding) failure. If a student does at least moderately well on standardized tests, there's a decent chance they'll do at least moderately well later in life. If most of a teacher's students flunk completely on the standardized tests, the teacher probably isn't doing a very good job.
elemenohpee 14y ago
Where did you go to school? How does this happen?
- the_bear 14y ago
  I went to the University City School District in St. Louis. It was actually a pretty strange place because it's the main district that Wash U (Washington University in St. Louis) is in, so about 10% of the students are children of (mostly white) professors and other very education-oriented professionals (doctors, lawyers, etc). Because of that, top classes (honors and AP) were actually pretty good. I, and many of my classmates went to Wash U and other top universities. The rest of the student body was made up of poor, mostly black students who came from families where education wasn't a priority. Every single year I was in high school the state tried to revoke our accreditation and we just barely passed a state audit to keep it. I was a math tutor, and it was common for students to come in who couldn't do basic addition (in high school). To make matters more confusing, the gap between the good students and the bad was almost entirely caused by economics (wealthier parents resulted in smarter kids, as is normally the case) but because the economic divide was almost identical to the racial divide, many of the educational issues were easily conflated with racial issues. This led to the (mostly black) teachers and administration demonstrating favoritism toward white students, and it also created tremendous social pressure on black students not to try to succeed academically (otherwise you're an oreo). I wouldn't trade my experience there for anything. I received a pretty good education, and I experienced a part of America that more privileged kids should experience, but most of the students at my school were definitely being left behind.
  - poppysan 14y ago
    I can co-sign for the quality of the district he mentions. My nieces and nephew are there now. It's totally an economic issue. My sister-in-law really does care about the education of her kids and their potential future, but she has to work 2 jobs to barely support them adequately. It's a case of survival knocking education down a notch on the priority scale.
  - w1ntermute 14y ago

roguecoder 14y ago

Except that even those things don't predict later success. Any kid with a family that can afford books will score higher on "can this kid read English". Any kid who's been drilled can learn to multiply two numbers together. Without cognitive skills behind them, though, those are not useful abilities. The best predictors of future success are self-control, emotional intelligence and a grasp of functional algebra (which I believe, but don't have evidence to support, is because of the importance of computational and systems-level thinking.) Only one of those, self-control, is even indirectly measured by current standardized tests.

ims 14y ago
> Any kid with a family that can afford books will score higher on "can this kid read English". True, but there are also many families that can afford books but don't buy them, instead spending money on other things. Not having books in the house has been shown to correlate with decreased academic success.[1] I'm not saying this isn't a wealth issue, but that probably isn't the only dimension. [1] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0276562410000090 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0276562410...
Nitramp 14y ago
> Without cognitive skills behind them, though, [multiplication, reading] are not useful abilities. Maybe I misunderstand you, but I fail to see how multiplication or reading are not useful skills. Good reading comprehension will help you navigate life in general, which is something lots of people struggle with. Similar for multiplication. Even if someone is not very intelligent, if he's mastered a basic skill like that, he'll find lots of places to apply it. That's why there's so much emphasis in school on them.
sp332 14y ago
I think it's worth emphasizing that the research done in this article doesn't look at kids' absolute test scores, but only the difference between test scores before and after the school year. Also, my school emphasized self-control, but how do you learn emotional intelligence?
- roguecoder 14y ago
  While it is a relatively recent topic of interest, surprisingly it doesn't seem particularly difficult to teach. Much of the research is still in the preliminary stages, but one study found persistent improvement after a brief four-session intervention: http://orbi.ulg.ac.be/bitstream/2268/30253/1/Nelis%20PAID%202009.pdf http://orbi.ulg.ac.be/bitstream/2268/30253/1/Nelis%20PAID%20... It will take further work to associate learning such skills with the positive outcomes associated with the skills themselves and figure out what the best ways to teach the skills are, but current research is promising.
  - sp332 14y ago
    Cool, thanks!
sopooneo 14y ago
From my work teaching I am very skeptical of the notion that it is a family's ability to "afford" books that makes the difference. It is whether the family knows that books are important and chooses to get them and read with their children. While monetary poverty is horrible, it's effect on educational outcome is dwarfed in comparison to cultural dysfunction and despair.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  Yeah, the monetary poverty theory doesn't hold up when it comes to the case of poor Asian (or African) immigrants. Although it certainly plays some role when all other things are equal, I think the major issue to be tackled is the glorification of thug life and demonization of education in contemporary African American culture.
- roguecoder 14y ago
  Sorry, that was unclear: the study I was thinking of specifically looked at giving poor families children's books and founded a measurable improvement in English skills. Of course access to a library that is open when a parent doesn't have to work, the time and energy to read to children and many other factors also play a role in early exposure to literacy.
lonnyk 14y ago
>Any kid with a family that can afford books will score higher on "can this kid read English". I don't think this is true. Those who can't afford books can goto the public library and get them.
- danielweber 14y ago
  Plus, books are really really really cheap. Go to any Goodwill or Salvation Army or Once Upon A Child and you will find gobs and gobs of books at very cheap prices. Yes, even undamaged. We toss lots of books in the trash in America, not because we hate books, but because we make so many of them and then need to make room for the new books. "Able to afford books" was once a status symbol. It's not any more. See also: http://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2011/10/12/141265066/hard-choices-do-libraries-really-destroy-books http://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2011/10/12/141265066/hard...
- infinite8s 14y ago
  This was more a correlation than causation (see Freakonomics for a description). Typically, families that can't afford books have other general issues that preclude their children from doing well (for example, they are poor, their parents typically work more than 1 job and can't spend much time with their children, etc).
tbrownaw 14y ago
I didn't read that as saying that testing can predict (outstanding) success. I read it as saying that testing can detect (outstanding) failure. If a student does at least moderately well on standardized tests, there's a decent chance they'll do at least moderately well later in life. If most of a teacher's students flunk completely on the standardized tests, the teacher probably isn't doing a very good job.

elemenohpee 14y ago

Where did you go to school? How does this happen?

the_bear 14y ago
I went to the University City School District in St. Louis. It was actually a pretty strange place because it's the main district that Wash U (Washington University in St. Louis) is in, so about 10% of the students are children of (mostly white) professors and other very education-oriented professionals (doctors, lawyers, etc). Because of that, top classes (honors and AP) were actually pretty good. I, and many of my classmates went to Wash U and other top universities. The rest of the student body was made up of poor, mostly black students who came from families where education wasn't a priority. Every single year I was in high school the state tried to revoke our accreditation and we just barely passed a state audit to keep it. I was a math tutor, and it was common for students to come in who couldn't do basic addition (in high school). To make matters more confusing, the gap between the good students and the bad was almost entirely caused by economics (wealthier parents resulted in smarter kids, as is normally the case) but because the economic divide was almost identical to the racial divide, many of the educational issues were easily conflated with racial issues. This led to the (mostly black) teachers and administration demonstrating favoritism toward white students, and it also created tremendous social pressure on black students not to try to succeed academically (otherwise you're an oreo). I wouldn't trade my experience there for anything. I received a pretty good education, and I experienced a part of America that more privileged kids should experience, but most of the students at my school were definitely being left behind.
- poppysan 14y ago
  I can co-sign for the quality of the district he mentions. My nieces and nephew are there now. It's totally an economic issue. My sister-in-law really does care about the education of her kids and their potential future, but she has to work 2 jobs to barely support them adequately. It's a case of survival knocking education down a notch on the priority scale.
- w1ntermute 14y ago