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"Test scores" Brilliant. Well, yes, that is the best way to measure a teacher's efficacy, if your goal is to teach students to jump through hoops and pass stan

by madaxe 14y ago

"Test scores" Brilliant. Well, yes, that is the best way to measure a teacher's efficacy, if your goal is to teach students to jump through hoops and pass standardised tests rather than to think. The best teacher I ever had was my grandmother - she taught me the most important lessons I'd ever learn, such as: "Observe the world around you." "Reach your own conclusions." "What was fact yesterday may be fiction tomorrow." Tests are a distraction from learning.

coob 14y ago
Did you read the article? It didn't use just standardised test scores.
- madaxe 14y ago
  Of course I did, but standardised tests, particularly in the US, do little other than teach people how to game multiple choice, and pass tests. Life isn't about passing tests, it's about learning.
crusso 14y ago
I don't really understand the visceral reaction against testing in this HN thread. You're tested throughout your working life. Almost every job interview is a test. Giving a customer presentation is a test. Finding bugs in your software for a release date is a test. Memorizing that big Cheesecake Factory menu so you can wait tables is a test. Getting your General Contractor's license is a test. Getting certified as a Pilot requires passing a test. There should be more to education besides testing, but being tested is a part of life and it's easy to measure success - that combination means that it's a useful tool for education.
- Mvandenbergh 14y ago
  Job interviews are a good example of a kind of testing that we know doesn't work all that well but we keep around for lack of a better alternative. The others are not good examples because they are useful in-and-of themselves. Giving good presentations and finding bugs are useful because they are useful, not because they predict something else. Pilot's licenses, like driver's licenses are based on tests where you more or less do the thing that you're being tested on. The test and the thing that it's supposed to measure are very similar and we can therefore use it to predict performance. In cases like that "teaching to the test" doesn't exist because practicing for the activity and for the test is the same thing. I'm not denying that educational testing is useful to quantify progress but such tests are often different enough from the underlying activity they're intended to measure that effort spent preparing for the test has little other purpose.
- madaxe 14y ago
  Job interviews are horseshit. I've been on both sides of the table, usually the hiring side. I've encountered people who excel at interview, and turn out to be useless. Conversely, I've encountered people who are horrible in interview, and wonderful employees. Giving a presentation isn't a test, it's a pleasure. You're not being tested. You're just presenting facts for someone to make a decision. There's not a right or wrong. If there is, you're in the wrong room. QA is not a test. It consists of tests, sure, but those are for the software, not you. It's a task, and one with a purpose. Memorising a menu is not a test. It's memorising a menu, for a purpose. If you were memorising a chapter of Crime and Punishment verbatim to get a job at Cheesecake Factory, that's a test, and an arbitrary one. Getting a license, in the sense that you're tested, again, is different, as those are vocational tests which test your practical skills for a specific application. Being tested is only part of life if you choose to let other people set your challenges. This is what the educational teaches you to do, and accept as normal.
sethammons 14y ago
On the "tests are a distraction from learning" point, it reminds me of: "testing students more often to improve test scores is similar to a rancher weighing is cows more often to increase their weight."

by madaxe 14y ago

coob 14y ago

Did you read the article? It didn't use just standardised test scores.

madaxe 14y ago
Of course I did, but standardised tests, particularly in the US, do little other than teach people how to game multiple choice, and pass tests. Life isn't about passing tests, it's about learning.

crusso 14y ago

I don't really understand the visceral reaction against testing in this HN thread. You're tested throughout your working life. Almost every job interview is a test. Giving a customer presentation is a test. Finding bugs in your software for a release date is a test. Memorizing that big Cheesecake Factory menu so you can wait tables is a test. Getting your General Contractor's license is a test. Getting certified as a Pilot requires passing a test. There should be more to education besides testing, but being tested is a part of life and it's easy to measure success - that combination means that it's a useful tool for education.

Mvandenbergh 14y ago
Job interviews are a good example of a kind of testing that we know doesn't work all that well but we keep around for lack of a better alternative. The others are not good examples because they are useful in-and-of themselves. Giving good presentations and finding bugs are useful because they are useful, not because they predict something else. Pilot's licenses, like driver's licenses are based on tests where you more or less do the thing that you're being tested on. The test and the thing that it's supposed to measure are very similar and we can therefore use it to predict performance. In cases like that "teaching to the test" doesn't exist because practicing for the activity and for the test is the same thing. I'm not denying that educational testing is useful to quantify progress but such tests are often different enough from the underlying activity they're intended to measure that effort spent preparing for the test has little other purpose.
madaxe 14y ago
Job interviews are horseshit. I've been on both sides of the table, usually the hiring side. I've encountered people who excel at interview, and turn out to be useless. Conversely, I've encountered people who are horrible in interview, and wonderful employees. Giving a presentation isn't a test, it's a pleasure. You're not being tested. You're just presenting facts for someone to make a decision. There's not a right or wrong. If there is, you're in the wrong room. QA is not a test. It consists of tests, sure, but those are for the software, not you. It's a task, and one with a purpose. Memorising a menu is not a test. It's memorising a menu, for a purpose. If you were memorising a chapter of Crime and Punishment verbatim to get a job at Cheesecake Factory, that's a test, and an arbitrary one. Getting a license, in the sense that you're tested, again, is different, as those are vocational tests which test your practical skills for a specific application. Being tested is only part of life if you choose to let other people set your challenges. This is what the educational teaches you to do, and accept as normal.

sethammons 14y ago

On the "tests are a distraction from learning" point, it reminds me of: "testing students more often to improve test scores is similar to a rancher weighing is cows more often to increase their weight."