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But isn't the point being made here that saying nothing could actively hurt your case? So you're screwed if you talk and you're screwed if you don't.

yardie 14y ago
It could hurt your case in a prisoners dilemma (they've got someone in the other room who's confessing and whoever does it faster gets a light sentence). But what do you gain by helping the police build a case against you? If anything, talk to your lawyer and have the lawyer do all the talking.
- repsilat 14y ago
  In a sense talking to the police is always a prisoners dilemma - the "don't talk to the police" strategy is equivalent to defecting, and being a helpful citizen is analogous to cooperating. Statistically it's not in your interest to talk to the police. Talking to them might help them catch a crook, but the payoff there is nothing compared to the shit it might get you into. On the other hand, an effective police force is a good thing in society, and the effectiveness of the police is markedly increased with a cooperative citizenry. So if you could have your way you'd like everyone to talk to the police except for you, but the Nash equilibrium is nobody talking to the police at all. I think that being able to put immediate self-interest aside and "cooperate" in PD-like situations is a large part of why our societies aren't god awful. Pocketing your trash instead of throwing it on the street, helping someone pick up the papers they've dropped, holding the elevator... they're not universal cultural norms, none of them "pay off", but we do them and life is better because we do. As far as societies go, citizen self-interest is a loser's game. I haven't figured out my position on this yet, but I wonder whether we might have a moral duty to talk to the police, provided the aggregate good to society (of 1. cooperating in this instance, and 2. maintaining the "culture of cooperation") outweighs the personal risk.
  - snogglethorpe 14y ago
    > Statistically it's not in your interest to talk to the police Maybe so. It seems slightly dubious on the face of it, though. Such a statistic would be highly influenced by the set of people who actually do talk to the police, and they may not have much in common with me. Regardless of the validity of the statistic, it seems completely absurd to therefore conclude "If you are guilty, innocent, or even just someone who witnessed or reported a crime, talking to the police cannot help you" as the GP comment did. If I'm in a position to talk to the police, I have information about my specific situation that isn't reflected in averages.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - yardie 14y ago
    I think that being able to put immediate self-interest aside and "cooperate" in PD-like situations is a large part of why our societies aren't god awful. There are so many factors that have gone into my conclusion to never cooperate with the police willingly. Primarily, being a minority means I'm statistically more likely to be harrassed, and god forbid, shot by one. In fact, the last time I "asked" the police for help they ran my name for warrants first. My cooperation in that instance could have ended up with me spending the weekend in jail. My self-interest is the preservation of my life and includes me not going to jail on bullshit charges, the rest of society can cooperate if they want. I'm not the only minority that thinks like this, following the media spectacle of one black, Harvard professor.
mjmahone17 14y ago
No, the point is that choosing to speak to the police, and then going silent, can hurt your case. If he had refused to speak to the police from the get go, then none of the evidence of him being deceptive would have been admissible in court. In fact, the officer wouldn't have any evidence of deception, because he wouldn't have talkedto Salinas in the first place.

yardie 14y ago

It could hurt your case in a prisoners dilemma (they've got someone in the other room who's confessing and whoever does it faster gets a light sentence). But what do you gain by helping the police build a case against you? If anything, talk to your lawyer and have the lawyer do all the talking.

repsilat 14y ago
In a sense talking to the police is always a prisoners dilemma - the "don't talk to the police" strategy is equivalent to defecting, and being a helpful citizen is analogous to cooperating. Statistically it's not in your interest to talk to the police. Talking to them might help them catch a crook, but the payoff there is nothing compared to the shit it might get you into. On the other hand, an effective police force is a good thing in society, and the effectiveness of the police is markedly increased with a cooperative citizenry. So if you could have your way you'd like everyone to talk to the police except for you, but the Nash equilibrium is nobody talking to the police at all. I think that being able to put immediate self-interest aside and "cooperate" in PD-like situations is a large part of why our societies aren't god awful. Pocketing your trash instead of throwing it on the street, helping someone pick up the papers they've dropped, holding the elevator... they're not universal cultural norms, none of them "pay off", but we do them and life is better because we do. As far as societies go, citizen self-interest is a loser's game. I haven't figured out my position on this yet, but I wonder whether we might have a moral duty to talk to the police, provided the aggregate good to society (of 1. cooperating in this instance, and 2. maintaining the "culture of cooperation") outweighs the personal risk.
- snogglethorpe 14y ago
  > Statistically it's not in your interest to talk to the police Maybe so. It seems slightly dubious on the face of it, though. Such a statistic would be highly influenced by the set of people who actually do talk to the police, and they may not have much in common with me. Regardless of the validity of the statistic, it seems completely absurd to therefore conclude "If you are guilty, innocent, or even just someone who witnessed or reported a crime, talking to the police cannot help you" as the GP comment did. If I'm in a position to talk to the police, I have information about my specific situation that isn't reflected in averages.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- yardie 14y ago
  I think that being able to put immediate self-interest aside and "cooperate" in PD-like situations is a large part of why our societies aren't god awful. There are so many factors that have gone into my conclusion to never cooperate with the police willingly. Primarily, being a minority means I'm statistically more likely to be harrassed, and god forbid, shot by one. In fact, the last time I "asked" the police for help they ran my name for warrants first. My cooperation in that instance could have ended up with me spending the weekend in jail. My self-interest is the preservation of my life and includes me not going to jail on bullshit charges, the rest of society can cooperate if they want. I'm not the only minority that thinks like this, following the media spectacle of one black, Harvard professor.

mjmahone17 14y ago

No, the point is that choosing to speak to the police, and then going silent, can hurt your case. If he had refused to speak to the police from the get go, then none of the evidence of him being deceptive would have been admissible in court. In fact, the officer wouldn't have any evidence of deception, because he wouldn't have talkedto Salinas in the first place.