5 ms·

How do you compare to Hamachi, which is the original zero-conf, one-click-install managed VPN service? https://secure.logmein.com/products/hamachi https://secu

by eps 14y ago

How do you compare to Hamachi, which is the original zero-conf, one-click-install managed VPN service? https://secure.logmein.com/products/hamachi https://secure.logmein.com/products/hamachi

rdl 14y ago
I've never actually used Hamachi (although from what I've heard, it's good); I'll check it out more.
- latitude 14y ago
  It's really good. Though I wrote the damn thing, so I'm probably biased.
  - gbraad 14y ago
    Really happy with Hamachi. Started out marketed as a gaming tool, but LogMeIn remarketed it correctly as a real virtual network solution. Saved my &*s on several occasions allowing me to connct to a 'non-Internet' facing server. Does not really have an enterprise feel to it and wonder if it ever will. It also lacks an open protocol description and/or clients on iOS or Android. However, an older build for ARM/Maemo is available. The lack of this limits it currently to a Windows and Linux environment.
    - rdl 14y ago
      Yeah, from looking at it (I haven't installed it yet), the Logmein purchase and adaptation seems to make it a lot more interesting (I think I do vaguely remember it as a gaming thing back in the day when IPX was a thing) I wonder if Salesforce, Oracle, Microsoft Azure, etc. would be likely to do some kind of virtual/software defined network thing in the future. It's an obvious choice for an IaaS provider, but being able to put your SaaS or PaaS on a customer-defined network makes a lot of sense too. Would love to talk to those guys.
      - latitude 14y ago
        It wasn't a "gaming thing". It was indeed widely used in gaming circles, but gamers weren't really the target market I designed it for. They just happened to come along in droves, because I added support for network broadcasts and that made LAN games playable over the internet.
    - latitude 14y ago
      The idea with protocol was always to keep the handshake/authentication part open, but don't commit to the details of the application client-server messaging. To that end the protocol spec for the original version was available from the moment the system went live and it was detailed enough so that some people made a sniffer and started reversing the application layer (which was fine with me). After the LogMeIn acquisition we revised the handshake protocol a bit to allow for security parameter negotiation and re-negotiation, and the spec again was published. It should still be there on the website, but I don't have a URL at hand. Also, I wasn't involved with Hamachi for few years now, but I think they had a plan to switch to TLS altogether, so that must've been done by now.
ser_tyrion 14y ago
Honestly hamachi has got nothing on evolve [0] [0] https://www.evolvehq.com/welcome#welcome-features https://www.evolvehq.com/welcome#welcome-features
- stephengillie 14y ago
  I really like the diversification of focus for VPN services. I haven't seen Evolve nor Cloak before, but both are great ideas. My friends used to like Hamachi, but recently have been crazy about Tunngle -- based more around gaming with random internet strangers, it uses the 7.x.x.x block. --- These solutions are amazingly better than trying to host a VPN from DDWRT on a low-powered router -- when the game host isn't on the router's LAN, there's a massive bandwidth penalty. It's worst on RTS and MOBA games, especially Demigod, where clients synchronize gamestate not just with the server, but with all peers. This isn't immediately obvious when hosting games, but every 100ms, each of the 6 clients are sending the checksum of ~1.2gb to 6 other clients, through your router. Twice.
dsl 14y ago
Hamachi hands out IPs to clients that don't belong to them. Notably they tried to hijack all of 5.0.0.0/8 and 25.0.0.0/8
- voltagex_ 14y ago
  But aren't those addresses only routed within Hamachi itself?
  - dsl 14y ago
    Its the same as if I worked for Verizon and routed all the phone numbers for San Francisco to my desk instead. Sure it works fine for everyone using AT&T, Sprint, etc. but it breaks the spirit of how the phone network should work (a central registry hands out blocks of phone numbers just like the Internet) and is in general a douchebag thing to do.
    - latitude 14y ago
      No, that's not the same. Having a 5.x.x.x address assigned to your machine doesn't make all Internet traffic for that address go to your box. You either don't understand the concept of routing domains or you just feel like trashing Hamachi in general.
      - dsl 14y ago
        At no point did I make that claim. Please re-read with a critical eye. Hamachi is effectively null routing legitimate users of the space within their network.
- latitude 14y ago
  They switch to IPv6 a while ago. That's one. Two - the idea to use 5.x/8 came through me and it dates back to a dot-bubble era managed VPN company I worked for, called eTunnels. These addresses are used for routing inside of virtual networks, which is a separate routing domain, disconnected from the Internet. While this does create a routing ambiguity at the VPN client that wants to talk to the Internet address of 5.x.x.x, it doesn't mean these addresses "leak" to the Internet and somehow disrupt general network flow to/from 5.x.x.x.

by eps 14y ago

How do you compare to Hamachi, which is the original zero-conf, one-click-install managed VPN service? https://secure.logmein.com/products/hamachi https://secure.logmein.com/products/hamachi

rdl 14y ago

I've never actually used Hamachi (although from what I've heard, it's good); I'll check it out more.

latitude 14y ago
It's really good. Though I wrote the damn thing, so I'm probably biased.
- gbraad 14y ago
  Really happy with Hamachi. Started out marketed as a gaming tool, but LogMeIn remarketed it correctly as a real virtual network solution. Saved my &*s on several occasions allowing me to connct to a 'non-Internet' facing server. Does not really have an enterprise feel to it and wonder if it ever will. It also lacks an open protocol description and/or clients on iOS or Android. However, an older build for ARM/Maemo is available. The lack of this limits it currently to a Windows and Linux environment.
  - rdl 14y ago
    Yeah, from looking at it (I haven't installed it yet), the Logmein purchase and adaptation seems to make it a lot more interesting (I think I do vaguely remember it as a gaming thing back in the day when IPX was a thing) I wonder if Salesforce, Oracle, Microsoft Azure, etc. would be likely to do some kind of virtual/software defined network thing in the future. It's an obvious choice for an IaaS provider, but being able to put your SaaS or PaaS on a customer-defined network makes a lot of sense too. Would love to talk to those guys.
    - latitude 14y ago
      It wasn't a "gaming thing". It was indeed widely used in gaming circles, but gamers weren't really the target market I designed it for. They just happened to come along in droves, because I added support for network broadcasts and that made LAN games playable over the internet.
  - latitude 14y ago
    The idea with protocol was always to keep the handshake/authentication part open, but don't commit to the details of the application client-server messaging. To that end the protocol spec for the original version was available from the moment the system went live and it was detailed enough so that some people made a sniffer and started reversing the application layer (which was fine with me). After the LogMeIn acquisition we revised the handshake protocol a bit to allow for security parameter negotiation and re-negotiation, and the spec again was published. It should still be there on the website, but I don't have a URL at hand. Also, I wasn't involved with Hamachi for few years now, but I think they had a plan to switch to TLS altogether, so that must've been done by now.

ser_tyrion 14y ago

Honestly hamachi has got nothing on evolve [0] [0] https://www.evolvehq.com/welcome#welcome-features https://www.evolvehq.com/welcome#welcome-features

stephengillie 14y ago
I really like the diversification of focus for VPN services. I haven't seen Evolve nor Cloak before, but both are great ideas. My friends used to like Hamachi, but recently have been crazy about Tunngle -- based more around gaming with random internet strangers, it uses the 7.x.x.x block. --- These solutions are amazingly better than trying to host a VPN from DDWRT on a low-powered router -- when the game host isn't on the router's LAN, there's a massive bandwidth penalty. It's worst on RTS and MOBA games, especially Demigod, where clients synchronize gamestate not just with the server, but with all peers. This isn't immediately obvious when hosting games, but every 100ms, each of the 6 clients are sending the checksum of ~1.2gb to 6 other clients, through your router. Twice.

dsl 14y ago

Hamachi hands out IPs to clients that don't belong to them. Notably they tried to hijack all of 5.0.0.0/8 and 25.0.0.0/8

voltagex_ 14y ago
But aren't those addresses only routed within Hamachi itself?
- dsl 14y ago
  Its the same as if I worked for Verizon and routed all the phone numbers for San Francisco to my desk instead. Sure it works fine for everyone using AT&T, Sprint, etc. but it breaks the spirit of how the phone network should work (a central registry hands out blocks of phone numbers just like the Internet) and is in general a douchebag thing to do.
  - latitude 14y ago
    No, that's not the same. Having a 5.x.x.x address assigned to your machine doesn't make all Internet traffic for that address go to your box. You either don't understand the concept of routing domains or you just feel like trashing Hamachi in general.
    - dsl 14y ago
      At no point did I make that claim. Please re-read with a critical eye. Hamachi is effectively null routing legitimate users of the space within their network.
latitude 14y ago
They switch to IPv6 a while ago. That's one. Two - the idea to use 5.x/8 came through me and it dates back to a dot-bubble era managed VPN company I worked for, called eTunnels. These addresses are used for routing inside of virtual networks, which is a separate routing domain, disconnected from the Internet. While this does create a routing ambiguity at the VPN client that wants to talk to the Internet address of 5.x.x.x, it doesn't mean these addresses "leak" to the Internet and somehow disrupt general network flow to/from 5.x.x.x.